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Is ever ok to "just show" your CCW?

6K views 73 replies 45 participants last post by  Mike1956 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Starting off I am new to site and fairly new to CCW:

Standing in line inside store at extremely busy gas station, several people in front of me and many people behind me. Two cash registers aprox 6ft apart, one line for both. Person bulls his way in between people behind me and shelving units till he gets to where I am standing, he stops and tells me that I should go to the register on my right. I explain that there are two people in front of me and I am waiting my turn, he does not touch me because by this time I have moved to my left several feet.

He goes to the register on the right and I to the left. As it works out my side moves at three times the speed of his side so by the time he gets back outside I am well into pumping fuel. Physically he is much larger than I am but at the pump I have my Lab in the truck and son who is pumping fuel, so even though I believe he would have said something, because he was clearly outnumbered he does not.

I was really trying to be overly nice, and was, and I feel that was why nothing further happened.

My question is; had person tried to "do" something outside, is ever ok to "just show" your CCW?

At what point if "person" is apparently not armed is it ok to try and defuse a situation by pulling your CCW, or is it? And if you pull should you call 911?

Thanks for everyone’s help.
Dave
 
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#2 ·
You need to seek professional instruction in the proper use of force as it relates to your State. However the short answer to question about exposing your firearm for it's intimidation factor is that you'll most likely get arrested.
 
#3 ·
Help with situation last night.

I concur, showing a weapon, at least until force has been shown, or a verbal threat of force sufficient to warrant the use of deadly force could be problematic.

The other factor is that as a citizen, you probably can't respond with deadly force to a 'simple' assault.

You really need to try to gain a more thorough understanding of the use of force laws for your state. My opinion is that this is usually covered inadequately in CC classes, so it is incumbent upon you to seek additional training. The books and videos by Massad Ayoob would be a good place to start.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

Edit: if you display your weapon for justifiable reasons and your opponent stops their threat, you should call 911 quickly. Before they do, in fact, else you may be deamed the aggressor.
 
#4 ·
Intentionally "just showing" your weapon is called "brandishing" in many states and is highly illegal.

Nowhere in your post have you indicated that this person has threatened you or performed any intimidating act other than being physically larger than you. Why in the world would you feel it necessary to show, or draw, your weapon?

I have seen nothing in your post to indicate any reason for you to have felt threatened, and am beginning to think you may just be looking for a reason to either: A) Show off to the world that you are armed and dangerous. or B) Draw a reaction form the forum that will allow you to show others that CCW carriers are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages.
 
#5 ·
My question is; had person tried to "do" something outside, is ever ok to "just show" your CCW?
No, that would be brandishing a weapon, unless you felt your life was in danger.

At what point if "person" is apparently not armed is it ok to try and defuse a situation by pulling your CCW, or is it?
For men, I'd say practically never. For a female, they might be able to get away with it by claiming "disparity of force", but I doubt that will work for you unless your 5'1" and weight 100lbs.

And if you pull should you call 911?
If your justified in doing so, you always need to contact the police.
 
#7 ·
I am never a fan of just "flashing" a weapon in plain clothes. I don't want them knowing I am armed at all until and unless I have to draw and am ready to fire.

If there is a situation where it looks or feels hinky or like something is just wrong (I trust my lizard brain to let me know when something is wrong), my first action is to look around, make sure I have the lay of the land for exits and cover or more bad guys, then start thinking about getting to a place where I have something solid behind me (step out of line like you forgot something - what is the rush anyway?), because you should always assume there is at least one more Bad Guy than you know about.

I am all about surprising the Bad Guys. If they are set on robbing or harming me, they are already dealing with multiple things mentally in their own right, and the human mind can only process and work on just so many things before it starts to reach the overload point, slowing them down mentally, and I want my pulling of the weapon to be the final tripwire to overload their ability to think, hopefully slowing their reactions down and catching them on the hop.

And the main kicker on situations where someone is being an ass, a jerk or bulling their way to the front of the line at a store is to remember that even though it is really really annoying, what they are doing is obnoxious, not illegal, and that if I say something sarcastic, it may then focus them on me instead of everyone else in the store, and then escalate from annoyance to them attacking me in particular, leading to a shooting where the police and the DA are definitely going to ask me, "Well, why the hell did you stir it up? The guy was obnoxious but not doing anything illegal until YOU said something." Not a good way to start explaining the use of deadly force.
 
#10 ·
I agree with everything that was said. Although, your SA should be your best friend after he did that. Keeping aware of what was going on, was he in a rush? Why does he want to get to the cash registers quickly? Is there alone? Once outside, is he watching me? especially outside you need to be alert, if he selected you as a target, drawing your attention for someone else to sneak up on you. Hows your dog reacting? These are all SA suggestions. Dont get paranoid, but get in a mindset where you use SA and do it all the time subconsciously.

I agree go to classes get more trainning, learn statelaws, talk to lawyers. Never pull/brandish your firearm, for some tough talking person. Let them talk, its their actions you should watch, if directed at you and a weapon/physical threat that can cause great bodily harm or death comes into play, then you could be justified.

Now i was not there, these are my thoughts/opinions. We all act/think different but i hope this helps you down the road in the future. And welcome to DC from S.E. wisconsin.
 
#11 ·
Starting off I am new to site and fairly new to CCW:
Standing in line inside store at extremely busy gas station, several people in front of me and many people behind me. Two cash registers aprox 6ft apart, one line for both. Person bulls his way in between people behind me and shelving units till he gets to where I am standing, he stops and tells me that I should go to the register on my right. I explain that there are two people in front of me and I am waiting my turn, he does not touch me because by this time I have moved to my left several feet. He goes to the register on the right and I to the left. As it works out my side moves at three times the speed of his side so by the time he gets back outside I am well into pumping fuel. Physically he is much larger than I am but at the pump I have my Lab in the truck and son who is pumping fuel, so even though I believe he would have said something, because he was clearly outnumbered he does not.
I was really trying to be overly nice, and was, and I feel that was why nothing further happened.

My question is; had person tried to "do" something outside, is ever ok to "just show" your CCW?
At what point if "person" is apparently not armed is it ok to try and defuse a situation by pulling your CCW, or is it? And if you pull should you call 911?

Thanks for everyone’s help.
Dave
Two things come to mind. First, sgb is 100% correct:

You need to seek professional instruction in the proper use of force as it relates to your State. However the short answer to question about exposing your firearm for it's intimidation factor is that you'll most likely get arrested.
Second, you need to add something to your toolbox between words and the gun. Pepper spray, impact tool, HTH training, etc. If your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail...
 
#12 ·
You might visit Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc. for a free download of "What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law."

You're smart to carry always; you're wise when you avoid needing to bring it out use it.
 
#13 ·
Your gun exists to kill an assailant. Period. It's not a replacement for other safety tools.

Almost every state requires you to face imminent death, grave bodily harm, or sexual assault (normally interpreted as a woman facing rape or sexual assault).

I don't read anywhere in that definition using a firearm to threaten, "defuse", or anything else. Until you learn the state laws for lethal self-defense in the states you carry, you are a risk to yourself and others.

You need an education, and you need it BEFORE you start carrying around a lethal weapon.
 
#14 ·
ToyTruckMan I'm very glad you came looking for answers and hope that you will do more investigation into your state's laws...and into more training. Both of the latter will make you feel more comfortable carrying and more secure in your actions.
 
#16 ·
$20.00 give or take... plus shipping, from many Amazon book dealers. It is out of print. Should not be... but since it is 31 years old some of the information is out of date. It's not quite as old as The Bible... but certainly an equivalent for those of us who carry a gun.

Buy it: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection By Massad Ayoob

Here's a link to the page on Amazon that has new and used copies. >>> Link<<<

In the end, yes IMO, there are times when you could expose a holstered weapon to defuse a situation before it happens... But not "pull." Once unholstered, you had better have a reasonable belief that you are in danger of death or grave bodily injury... (Texans, disregard) and be 110% prepared to use it... It should be an extremely rare occasion in which a firearm is unholstered and not fired at a BG. (not just rare for you, rare across the board of all Concealed Carriers.

Now, If LA is a state which allows open carry... you can go that route... But my cursory check of handgunlaw.com does not indicate it is an open carry state.

Welcome to the forum.
 
#17 ·
You would have to face a serious threat to expose your weapon in my state. (Ohio) Otherwise, you would most likely be charged with aggravated menacing. You would also need to report the incident to the police ASAP. Never underestimate the BG's cunning. All he has to do is call 911 first and report you to try and turn the tables on you. "I was minding my own business, and this lunatic pulled a gun on me for no reason!"
 
#22 ·
Hey toy: Aside from the comments you have already received concerning state law and the term brandishing, let me mention a situation that happened on christmas eve in 2010 in Bluffton SC. Without all the details, an individual opened his jacket to show someone he was having an argument with the gun he had in his waistband. The guy who opened his jacket is now dead and the other guy will be tried shortly on manslaughter. The point is not what happened overall, the point is that you "show your CCW", you are now the person causing someone to think imminent danger and you can die. THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA regardless of state law or definitions of brandishing. Presumption of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury is the precursor and only precursor that truly makes sense, and if it ends well with the danger slinking away as you were prepared to discharge your firearm--that is not brandishing, it is a smart decision by a stupid BG.
 
#36 ·
Good post and so true, however another CLEAR learning example is if you have a gun (CC orOC) and you get stuck in an arguement, and the guy flashes, be smart you dont need to be the bigger man be the smarter. Walk away and even call the police, cause what he did was a "silent threat" although dont know the details of the argument, reguardless, what ge did was wrong... dont be big, be smart!
 
#25 ·
My question is; had person tried to "do" something outside, is ever ok to "just show" your CCW?

At what point if "person" is apparently not armed is it ok to try and defuse a situation by pulling your CCW, or is it? And if you pull should you call 911?
OK. Here's my opinion. From what I can tell from a quick google search, open carry is allowed in Louisiana. So. I suppose a lot of it depends on how you go about "showing" your firearm. If you were just wearing a jacket over your firearm, and just decided to remove your jacket because you "suddenly felt warm" and the bad guy (or questionably bad guy) happened to just see the firearm. You could probably get away with that. However, if you had it under a tucked in shirt and you went out of your way to expose it, then could be interpreted as brandishing. If you had it in a bag, and pulled it out, definitely brandishing. If you had it in your pocket and pulled it out, definitely brandishing.

Here in Texas, there is virtually no way for me to show a gun to a potential bad guy unless the situation is bad enough to warrant "threat of deadly force" which means I would be justified in brandishing my weapon.
 
#31 ·
I have to agree with Adric on this one. In a state that allows open carry, if you expose your gun while holstered, you probably couldn't be charged with anything. HOWEVER, as stated earlier in this thread, when you introduce a firearm to a situation in which you think could be escalating into a deadly force situation, you might be the one escalating the situation to deadly force. IE bad guy has no idea you are armed, you show him that you are armed, he shoots you on the spot because he feels you were a bigger threat than once thought. Looks like most people are agreeing with this scenario.

Personally, I would choose to never expose my firearm to de-escalate a situation. Typing this line just makes it sound like a huge double negative. I vote to only show it when you are using it.
 
#28 ·
I think all the answers all tend to agree, which just may be a first for the internet!
I will add that there may be some extremely rare instances where you might consider removing your jacket to uncover a gun. (Being followed down a dark alley way by two hoodie wearing punks.) Still not ideal if they are also armed cause now they have a reason to rob you, and they know they need to strike first and hard, or risk you firing at them. This is not something I am advocating, just playing devils advocate here.

Also, there are several technics that can be used to disarm a situation. It sounds like in this particular case the situation never got to a point of needing handling, but suppose it had. Let's say the guy did approach you outside as you were pumping gas. IF you had time you could have stopped pumping, got in your car and left. Since you already paid for the gas your not breaking the law. You would be out the balance of the gas you paid for, but considering that you could end up in a fight, in the hospital, or having to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars to defend a justified shooting (or even brandishing) charge driving away is a good investment.

Several other people have in previous threads mentioned other technics that have worked in this types of situations;

1. Give them a hard, no nosense, "Don't MESS with me stare". This may discourage someone from even starting to approach you. It could also been seen as a challenge to the other guy, as inhim asking, "What are you looking at?" It's kind of a crap shoot.

2. Someone once said they used humor, they said somethng to the effect "Tommorow if someone ask me if I ever shot someone, I can answer 'Yes'. It's sort of a indirect threat, it might scare someone off, again, it might just cause more anger. If I was going to use humor I think I would try something a little less extreme. Perhaps something like "Not only are they (meaning the gas companies) ripping us off in the wallets, they have to steal 15 minutes of our life standing in their lines."

Welcome to the forums. This is a great place to spend sometime learning what questions you need to think about, and you should consider reading some of the books mentioned and also take a class or two in ccw classes that teach the law, and explain what you can and cannot do, and tips to get out of bad situations.
 
#41 ·
1. Give them a hard, no nosense, "Don't MESS with me stare". This may discourage someone from even starting to approach you. It could also been seen as a challenge to the other guy, as inhim asking, "What are you looking at?" It's kind of a crap shoot.
I have wondered about this as well. Normally I'm a very timid person, for anyone who knows me. I was the kid in school who never spoke to anyone unless I was spoken to. However, I learned later in life that it is best to project an image of high self confidence most of the time in public. The way I see it, with any luck that will prevent me from being targeted to begin with. But if I am, then I always have the option to return to a more apologetic demeanor as a means to de-escalate. I've actually done this once, which I posted about on her some time ago. It worked. It saved me from having to shoot 4 thugs who were threatening bodily injury to me and my wife. In the end, it was worth sacrificing some pride.
 
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#39 ·
One of the States bordering me had a similar law on the books. It was repealed after a person was convicted for not shooting another person. He had brandished his weapon in response to a threat. The threat disappeared so he did not shoot. The Court said he was required to shoot even if the threat no longer existed once he drew his weapon.

You State sounds like it must have a similar law. The simple remedy would be to not brandish your weapon. Or, once having drawn it shoot the BG enen though he has ceased the attack and is on his knees begging for mercy.
Strange laws are on the books in many States.

Michael
 
#37 ·
Is it ever Ok to "just show" your CCW???? NO...
 
#38 ·
If you do not feel you are in the immediate need of using the gun, then you shouldn't be doing anything with it other than leaving it in the holster and concealed. AS already said, anything else will more likely end you up in jail and in need of a good attorney.
 
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