August 23rd, 2006 10:17 PM
How would any of us have handled this?
Interesting story from the Utah News (www.desertnews.com) about a scum bag who stole a carton of cigarets, and when the femaleclerk followed him outside, he punched her in the face a few times.
Now, this story turned out well, as a former Marine stepped up and put the hurt on this dirt bag. But, not all of us are built like a former Marine (I'm workin on it....but it is slow going) and heck, all former Marines aren't built like former Marines. Cubsmurf and I work with a guy who is a former Marine and to me he looks like a skinny doofus. But that's just me.
So, how would you have handled this? Would you get involved? I for one know I am not going to stand by and watch some scum beat a woman in the parking lot of a 7-11. I just couldn't live with myself.
Last edited by TN_Mike; August 24th, 2006 at 09:09 PM.
August 23rd, 2006 10:27 PM
It would eat me up not to help.
At the moment, the way I'm built, too overweight with a broken leg, the only way I could help was either shoot the guy in the leg (which might give way to self defense if he swung on me), and/or call 911.
That is a touchy situation. Some places in this country would crucify me for doing that !
August 23rd, 2006 10:31 PM
For the record, PT-111 is correct....the ex-marine is a skinny doofus....I wouldn't trust him to have my back in any situation.....as far as the situation, I don't know what I would do. I would hate to see something like that happen, and it would make my blood boil. In the same breath, when we carry, it's our responsibility to make sure we don't escalate situations to the point of no return. I think these are the kind of situations where we have to be careful. It's crap that the BG hit the woman, but at the point, the situation is over....if we enter in, who knows what may happen....would have to play it by ear.
August 23rd, 2006 10:34 PM
Depending on the size of the guy I would have probably called 911 and unless I thought her life was in danger, maybe if he punched her twice and was coming in for a third or a kick I'd have felt that way, I wouldn't get involved.
Always thought getting in any physical altercation while armed is a bad idea. What if I'm knocked out, the gun falls out, we go to the ground and he feels the gun or any other number of possibilties.
August 23rd, 2006 10:34 PM
Personally , I would give him a good shove to clear the clerk , then try to get the clerk inside. I am not build like a football lineman, but will not stand idlely by.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
August 23rd, 2006 10:35 PM
I think we have a responsibility, since we choose to carry firearms for self defense, to NOT escalate any situation. That said, I wouldn't think that intervening on the behalf of a woman is escalating. Passive intervention may have been all that was necessary (the marine may have just enjoyed what he was doing (God bless him, and all of them))
But you've got to consider .. can you (not you personally) take a butt whipping and not draw your gun? Can you get in a really physical knock/down drag out, and not lose your firearm? What if it falls out, he gets to it, shoots you and the woman, and runs off with it? What if he gets you down, and in your estimation, puts one too many kicks in your ribs? Are you justified? How will it look in court?
I do NOT think that carrying a firearm means we look the other way for every situation that's not life and death. We're citizens and and I believe citizens owe it to other citizens to help out where they can (in this context, my definition of citizen is pretty narrow .. but I won't go into that here). But, we also have responsibilities associated with carrying a firearm.
Personally, I'd have gotten involved ...
August 23rd, 2006 10:40 PM
I think I would tell the other employee to call 911..then yell at the BG to stop while maintaining some distance (vice being close enough to getting a punch thrown). Hopefully this would end it immediately. If he proceeds to assault her again or myself further then take appropriate action as the situation progresses...which isnt going to include my poor boxing skills.
I think the Marine did a great job and it worked out, but played it somewhat risky IMHO.
USN - SSN 682
You reap what you sow.
August 23rd, 2006 11:13 PM
I will not stand by and watch some scum sucking puke whoop up on a women.
I would do whatever it took to END the situation, up to and including cheating if neccesary.
If he wants to fight, then he'll get a fight. I dont care how big or bad he is, I' going to make him PROVE that he can whoop me. And ya know what ? Even in the unlikely event that I get my azz kicked,at least I'll be able to look myself in the mirrror and know that I at least tried.
Yeah...I know its risky. Yeah...I know and understand that anything can happen. Yeah, I know about the legal ramifications. Yeah, I know that we arent supposed to "escalate".
But..ya know what?
The day that wearing a firearm keeps me from doing what is right and what is just because I'm worrying about it, I'll put it up and never wear it again...
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
August 23rd, 2006 11:15 PM
He'd have been begging me to call the cops after about 15 seconds. I don't teach Kenpo (part time) for no reason.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone
The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.
August 23rd, 2006 11:43 PM
August 23rd, 2006 11:46 PM
I think that any of us would have taken care of business. One of the great things that I have seen from every individual that I have met that has a CHL is that they believe in fighting for what is right. We see things differently.
I am reminded of a post not too long ago about an article by a LT Col that said people fall into three groups..
I thank God that I have not only the capacity but the ability to be a sheepdog. I cannot nor will I sit idly by while some scumbag picks on someone that is either not capable of taking care of themself or is blindsided by some cowardly act. It is up to the sheepdogs of the world to start showing the wolves among us that they won't be tolerated any longer.
"Do not fear those who disagree with you; fear those that do and are too cowardly to admit it" - Napoleon
August 24th, 2006 02:15 AM
Exact situation determines tactics, but I'd get involved.
Originally Posted by USPnTX
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
August 24th, 2006 05:50 AM
Guys, I agree the situation was horrible and I am glad that someone stepped in to help out. Now, lets picture this situation you intervene and yes you are carrying only to find out that the guy is a former Special Forces guy down on his luck, and you find yourself in a world of hurt. And as you attack he turns attention towards you advances and mounts you,using his body weight to ride you to the ground, mounting high on your chest and he begins to pound your face.
Next you reach for your weapon because you are in fear for your life, unaware that the female has now returned the favor and is trying to pull the guy off of you!. You squeeze off two, pop, pop first round missing. Second round hitting the guy who continues to assault you. Pop, pop, second round of 230 grain Hydrashocks stops the threat. You are shaken, but this increases as the female clerk realizes that she is also hit. She and he attacker later dies. What do you do ? How do you feel ? Are you financially ready to take on the legal issues that are more than likely to come ?
Guys we have talked about this situation a million times and as a person who is blessed to be very capable with my hands and a weapon. I think this is a tough call. Why because so many variables are in place. First, you are armed, Second you don't know the background of the guy attacking the clerk. And yes you rarely know the background of anyone attacking you. But in this case the clerk chose to run after the guy. Nevertheless, me personally, I think I would have pepper sprayed the guy.
Now, having said that this article really compels me to buy some, because you never know when situations like this will come about, and spray allows you to use the least amount of force to stop a threat. Because going hand to hand with the guy and you are carrying in this situation is a no, no because you are now the attacker as well as he. Why because you possess the ability to do greater damage. And yes, I realize that the guy in the article was not carrying and more than likely did not have spray.
Thus, as guarders of sheep I now realize the importance of carrying spray at all times and will immediately purchase some. Guys don't look at your CCW as a cape to be used to defend the world it is first for you and yours, because the truth is people are ready to sue at a drop of a hat, and when they do the knight in shining armour is usually left naked and confused. My 2cents.
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
August 24th, 2006 06:02 AM
How would any of us have handled this?
About ten years ago I drove up to a Burger King and, next door at a pseudo "7-11" saw several people watching a man putting a serious ass-wuppin' on a "drunk" laying on the ground. Unarmed (no CCW at the time), I stood between them and asked what was going on . The "perpetrator" said the guy insulted his girlfriend so he was going to "kick" his ass; but since I was handy he was going to start on me (he began to push me around). Attempted reasoning with this guy but it wasn't working. But he eventually backed off because of his girlfriend screaming and pulling on him. At no time was I "injured" or was anyone seriously threatened. So if I had a weapon, I do not think I would have been justified in drawing it. I went inside the "7-11" and asked them to call the cops, wouldn't do it so I did. Cops showed up but the perp had left. Gave them the info and vehicle license. I told them I would testify; they said no assault had taken place on me, he only "pushed" me around. The drunk was already looking for another drink. Short time later, while taking my statement, other cops found the guy and charged him with having a stolen plates on his truck and some other minor infractions.
In retrospect, at 5'6", 200lbs, and never being in a serious fight, except with my big sister, I think I woulda got a serious ass-whuppin also. I woulda put up a bit of a fight (screaming and crying all the time), but the results woulda been the same. Had I been armed, I think I would have had to take a bit of an ass-whuppin before I could have said enough of this **** and pulled my .45 . Otherwise, I would have been in trouble. I'd do it again, and if it had been a woman being beaten - yep, I would have been faster getting between them. At least I'd be a distraction to the perp and even a dachshund can get in a good bite or two.
August 24th, 2006 06:09 AM
It depends on the circumstances. It would drive me nuts seeing a guy beat a woman, but you never know what the deal is. For all you know they could be married (not exactly the scenerio that you present) and she change her mind and you get blamed for starting something.
Without witnesses I'm not doing much more than calling the cops. I don't carry spray because it's to windy in this state and the chance of blowback making me vulnerable to attack is too high
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
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