Hypothetical Scenario - What would you do?

This is a discussion on Hypothetical Scenario - What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So you in a small town Municipal Building paying your water bill. The room is set up kind of like a bank in regards to ...

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Thread: Hypothetical Scenario - What would you do?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Hypothetical Scenario - What would you do?

    So you in a small town Municipal Building paying your water bill. The room is set up kind of like a bank in regards to the counter. Long counter, runs the width of the room, about same height as a bank teller counter. Two ladies behind the counter with one empty spot between them.

    You are up at the counter dealing with the lady on the right.
    You are armed CC with a Kahr PM9 with Speer 124gr +P Hollow points.

    A man comes in and goes up to the lady on the left, next thing you know he has right arm straight out with a gun in it pointed at the lady in front of him. He starts telling her to give him all the money.

    BTW, the State allows you to carry inside Municipal buildings.

    Do you:

    a: Be a good witness, and hope he doesn't shoot the lady. (Maybe you could have prevented her death).
    b: Draw and tell him to drop it?
    c: Draw and put the first one just above his right ear. or
    d: Draw and put the multiple rounds in his right arm pit? (Do 9mm Gold Dots go through ribs good?)
    e: None of the above - what do you do?

    Lets say he is 6'1" and 225lbs.
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    You probably can't shoot him without risking his reflexively shooting the lady. He might even do that if his peripheral vision makes him aware of you going for a gun.

    I'd say EITHER be a good witness and hope for the best, pretend you saw nothing and move toward the door if you want to take him as he puts his gun away and turns to leave (depending on state laws, blah blah), or if you want the fight (note that your life counts too as does the lady's-keep that in mind), divert his attention in some way to get the gun off the lady and give you an opportunity to respond.

    All of that said, I think almost anything you do in that situation will, unless you time it just right and get really luck, present more real risk than letting a garden variety hold up proceed.

    We all like to think we would and could be the hero, but sometimes it just isn't likely to work out. In your scenario one highly probable outcome would be a dead or wounded clerk, a dead or wounded hold up man, and a dead or wound you.

    Three possible casualties to stop something which might have well proceeded with none. I don't like those odds.
    Last edited by Hopyard; February 2nd, 2012 at 10:46 PM. Reason: changed "out" to "one"
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I am not big on scenarios but I would say be a good witness. I doubt he would kill the lady if she complies because there are two witnesses left. If he is that close to you there is no way he can miss you drawing. That action might cause him to fire and you would be responsible for the ladies death. Same thing if you try to disarm him or knock his arm away. You are now responsible if anything happens to the lady. He is not pointing the gun at you.
    The vast majority of armed robberies do not end up with deaths unless the BG or the victims get nervous.

    My 2 cents.
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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Thanks Hopyard, points well made.
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    Judging by how you presented it, I'd attempt to take several steps back and away to get out of his direct line of sight, I carry at the 3:00 Risky your scene puts me in a extreme disadvantage. I'm thinking 6 to 10 feet seperates us! If I happened to have it in my carhart coat pocket and I could get a step back I'd might fire from in the pocket.

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    No, my state does not allow firearms carry in municipal buildings.

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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    No, my state does not allow firearms carry in municipal buildings.
    For this scenario, lets say you are in a state that allows you to carry in municipal buildings.
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    D. You run like heck. Anyone with a brain knows that the municipal water office isn't a big cash business so he is probably there to blow some folks away or the business is a front for some money laundering racket; either way, it would be best to get out before the carnage starts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    D. You run like heck. Anyone with a brain knows that the municipal water office isn't a big cash business so he is probably there to blow some folks away or the business is a front for some money laundering racket; either way, it would be best to get out before the carnage starts.
    I agree about getting out of there and not engaging but where I live, the water office or the town clerks office is no credit cards. Cash or check, and a lot of cash is used by the less fortunate folks. Anyways, he said the guy did ask for money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I agree about getting out of there and not engaging but where I live, the water office or the town clerks office is no credit cards. Cash or check, and a lot of cash is used by the less fortunate folks. Anyways, he said the guy did ask for money.
    Shows you what I know about municipal water offices...

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    If I am on his right side, my drawing from a strong side holster won't look much different than me pulling or putting my wallet in my pocket. He certainly doesn't know what side I carry my wallet on, so I am not overly concerened with being made while drawing. Besides, if he is focused on the lady behind the counter, at 90 degrees his peripheral vision isn't going to see much of what I am doing.

    If it is set up like you suggest, you might not want to take a shot from along the counter, since shooting parrallel to the counter means the bullet is going to travel in the direction of an office or something/someone if it goes through the guy or you miss.

    If I am going to shoot, it will be while I am moving backwards away from the counter, hopefully while he is focused on the lady on the other side. The counter would be the backstop for any stray bullets out of my gun. If I am back at his 120 degree mark, it gives me the time needed to present the gun and be on target before he notices. If he does turn to see my actions, that means the gun is no longer being aimed at the clerk, or at least his eyes are not sighting in on her. If I am shooting, it is center mass on the guy, not going for the back/side of his head to start with.

    It all will depend on the circumstances right then and there. Nothing is certain until I am there.
    Last edited by farronwolf; February 2nd, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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    From the facts, my gut reaction is he's not heck bent on killing. First thought is he's a take the money and run guy. I'd back away, blade so my 4:00 is far from him, assume a submissive looking posture, but be ready.

    But my initial gut feel is that there is a very good chance that if I don't open fire, there will be no gunfire. Let him take the water bill money.

    I could be wrong, but that's my gut after reading the facts.

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    E. Slowly back away from the counter, exit and proceed to call in the Pro's. That's their job. Not yours. Unless you wanna be a hero. Personally you never know whats going on there. Who's knows? Maybe the fat lady behind the counter is in on the robbery...or like someone esle said maybe he is there to start a friggin wet t-shirt contest...and I don't mean ala Girls Gone Wild type of contest. Now if he decides to harm you that's a completely different scenario.
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    I think in this scenario, at that moment in time, I wouldn't know enough about the risk to make an informed decision on whether or not to act.

    I would want to see how he's acting. I can't imagine a robber being polite, obviously, but for example:

    Is he anxious/in a hurry? If he seems like he just wants to get the money and get out as fast as possible, chances are he's not going to pull the trigger on anyone unless they get in his way. In this case I wouldn't engage.

    Is he calm or does he seem very, very unstable? Obviously anyone robbing a building isn't going to be completely mentally "stable", but does he seem like he intends to do anyone physical harm? What is he saying to the woman? Is he saying "Come on, come on, come on, give me the money!" or is he saying "I'm going to kill you", etc.

    So, to answer your question (given the information provided) I would probably do A (be a good witness) or try to escape if I thought it wouldn't make the situation worse, but if I felt that me or anyone around me was in unavoidable danger of being shot, I would wait for an opportunity to present itself and put 2 in the chest (or ribs) and one in the head.
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    I would covertly draw my sidearm and prepare to engage if the situation begins to indicate violence is emanate.
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