Defensive Carry banner

Would you get into a fist fight while carrying?

16K views 109 replies 61 participants last post by  Lish 
#1 ·
I know the title is misleading. I'm not that stupid and arrogant to look for fights while carrying. Hell I actually have cut out going to the bar and club strips in downtown but lets just say hypothetically you don't want to shoot but you're the only immediate help in the area. What do you do?

What got me thinking about this hypothetical situation is the gang/group voilence that our youth and senior citizens is facing today. I can remember being jumped some days when I was walking home from the school bus... I was a nerd lol. Or for a more recent and more serious example, a young gifted man in Chicago trying to escape a gang fight then being beat senseless with a railroad tie he died that day or a couple years back there was a high school girl that was gang raped at Prom. Or say you stumble upon a home invasion in progress against a elderly couple. I'm not trying to be a super hero but other than calling the cops what can or what should I do if I saw a innocent being harmed? What should my mindset be about situations like this?

I live in PA so shooting in self defense for another victim or a voilent crime (such as rape) is "justified" but again that's all up to a jury of my peers. So I have thought about this.
 
#2 ·
Be a good witness. Call 911

You may have a gun but you are not LEO!

You are more likely to get yourself in trouble than you are to help someone.

Modern society is much too litigious to be a hero. If you're LEO, you have a department and a union covering your butt. If you're just a citizen, how much are you willing to lose to be a hero?
 
#54 ·
There is also the alter ego rule in many states (including SC) that sounds great (you can act as if you are the person in imminent danger. Trouble is that the thread makes the scenarios sound so cut and dry and the alter ego rule assumes same; it is as if you were there from the very beginning and have a stake in the scenarios--ain't like that in the real world. You have no idea who, what, where, when as they pertain to a situation. You may think you are helping but you can be very wrong and in very big trouble.
 
#3 ·
ideally calling 911 and advising them of an ongoing event leading up to telling them you are legally armed and asking if you should get involved.
if they give you the green light--in court that may be what decideds your verdicts.
but the time spent on the phone with 911 may make action on your part moot...as in, by the time they get done with 40 questions--and them not wanting to expose themselves legally for your actions....

well what was happening aint no more.

its too late now for you to make a difference.


.....so much for Plan B
 
#5 ·
Yes In Texas we to have the right to help others to. Rape is a very hard one to get involved in and should be questioned but like all others YOU need to use common sense. To those that say be a good witness I say bull-s, if you feel the need to get involved; do it but make sure you understand the situation. Man and woman in a heated argument and he slaps her: witness. Armed man robbing a C-store while you are there: I say yea. Being a good witness has its price tag to; the haunting memory that you could have made a difference but didn't. They are right WE are not cops but the laws are written so we can get involved if we choose to. I carry a gun but that is not a deciding factor, I would get involved without it for I am my brother’s keeper
 
#7 ·
This is very reasonable. As for the OP, you shouldn't be trying to break up petty stuff. If there is a legitimate felony being committed against a person, then it may be favorable to intervene. But personally, these situations are rare in that they have to be clear cut. It's unwise to walk into the middle of a situation that you know nothing about and try to be the good guy.
 
#6 ·
Well, since I'm pushing 70 now, getting involved in any kind of physical confrontation to help someone other than a family member is pretty much out of the question now! The old saying, "the spirist is willing but the flesh is weak":rolleyes: is kinda appropriate. I'd be calling 911 and be a good witness unless it was a VERY grave situation where ALL the facts were known and the use of lethal force was obviously justified. Just sayin.:yup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: RichB70
#8 ·
I think if you have to ask this question you need to somehow find the time and money to purchase some training. If I remember correctly, PA has no training requirement. You pay your 25 bucks to the state and that's it.

The training I'm talking about is not about how to shoot. It is about applying the laws of your state on use of lethal force to
various situations. It is about understanding what to do in various situations-- which may be anything from run, call 911, use non-lethal force, use lethal force. It all depends.

You sound like a young man. I'm an old man. I've read 4 books which I think you need to read.

1) In the Gravest Extreme
2) Verbal Judo
3) Little Black Book of Violence-- what every young man needs to know about violence
4) The Gift of Fear.

Take some time to get yourself an education in matters of self defense; an intellectual foundation which will guide your decision making, and which will also help keep you away from trouble.
 
#9 ·
You're right about our training requirements in PA and I will continue to seek training. JD just put me on to the FIRE academy. 25 dollars, no priors and the conceal carry permit is yours. I actually had a local, long time serving and well known cop be a reference on my application... I did my senior project on his job, the PA laws are quite "laxed".

But can I have your opinion about intervening on a situation in which someone else's life and health is at risk?
 
#10 ·
Do you feel sorry for lazy folks who never worked a day in their life and are destitute on the street living out of dumpsters?

If not then you shouldn't be overly concerned about "victims" who's only taken the steps of paying taxes to ensure their personal protection. In these cases they're getting exactly the protection they paid for.

My carry is for me and my family alone. Which isn't to say I'm not going to act in the gravest of circumstances (not a robbery but folks getting MURDERED) but I'm also not going to treat my ccw card as though it were a badge or cape, Superman was bulletproof. I'M NOT

posted via tapatalk using android.
 
#11 ·
Do you feel sorry for lazy folks who never worked a day in their life and are destitute on the street living out of dumpsters?

If not then you shouldn't be overly concerned about "victims" who's only taken the steps of paying taxes to ensure their personal protection. In these cases they're getting exactly the protection they paid for.

My carry is for me and my family alone. Which isn't to say I'm not going to act in the gravest of circumstances (not a robbery but folks getting MURDERED) but I'm also not going to treat my ccw card as though it were a badge or cape, Superman was bulletproof. I'M NOT.
Blunt but persuasive. This is where I stand as well.

I've posted this before in threads like this, but I've never received an answer. You don't need a gun to make a difference. Many armed criminals have been stopped by grappling, etc. Why is it that when people are carrying they suddenly feel a "responsibility" to intervene? The gun shouldn't make the difference.

For me, I don't feel a responsibility to get involved if I'm not carrying. Ditto if I am carrying. (Yes, this rule does not apply to bizarre hypotheticals of manifest degenerate evil and where you have the "drop of all drops" to intervene, so don't go there).
 
#13 ·
There are those who :
1* Call 911 when they see the building on fire & that's it.
2* Those who just watch the building burn.
3* Those who rush in to make sure everyone is out.
4* Those who will go in if necessary to rescue someone.

You have to decide which you are. You have just seen several posts cover about each one of these. One thing I've learned about myself , is I'm neither a # 1 or a # 2.

I'll do what I need to do, at the level I need to do it ...when I need to do it. I'll do what I feel capable of handling and doing at the time, based upon the situation and how I assess it.
 
#17 ·
I am 55 and have never been in a fist fight (I punched a kid in grade school once, but thats it). I bruise too easily. Call 911 and stay out of it. Nothing good can come of getting physically involved.
 
#19 ·
Darebear, you are asking if its ok to get involved. That is a personal decision that you, and you alone will have to make. Just remember that you weapon should be your last course of action. We can WHAT IF this to death.. Bottom line, it is your decision to make...
 
#22 ·
^this is your anwser... we can sit here and arm chair quarterback this to death... Lets look at it at from a CCer's point of view.

While a friend of mine took his CPL class the instructor went around the room and asked everyone if they could take a life to defend themselves or a loved one.. (Can you pull the trigger?).. The instructor wanted an honest answer... Everyone in the room answered a strong YES... when it he got to my friend, my friend said. I Don't know, I hope so but it will depend. The instructor goes you are the only one who answered that honestly.

Mind you my friend was in Vietnam and fought in the jungles so death is nothing new to him. But the main point my friend wanted to make is that every situtation is different and a general answer is not going to cover each and every situation we can sit here and think of. We will have to factor in all the things going on in that particular point of the incident and make a split second decison and act upon it.
 
#25 ·
To the OP. The way people drive in P.A. is crazy! Especially during rush hour. Lol.
Now to answer your question. To get your CHL in OH you have to take a class. So we learned a little about being a hero and/or being a concerned citizen. So with that in mind I'm less likely to stick my nose in someone else's business unless I know them, then even then its sketchy until i can get some answers. I carry because I love myself, my wife, and our 13 month old daughter. So if I can avoid trouble than by all means I will. I will report a crime in progress that's all the involvement I'm doing.

Think of it this way. You see somebody getting jumped you try to stop them and you pull your gun. The people stop jumping the guy on the ground. The guy gets up and runs off. The group gets mad at you because 1. You pointed a gun at them and 2. you just let a robber, rapest, bugler, etc get a way.
By not knowing the whole situation you have now got involved whereas it would have been better to just call the cops.
 
#27 ·
I went to KI last summer and at first I was driving the posted speed limit then Everytime I look in my rear view there would be a line of cars behind me so I would speed up. I was weary of cops posted up looking for speeders once I didn't see any I was going with the flow of traffic and enjoying driving around.

The only time I saw a cop was when I was leaving from KI he drove up on me in a marked SUV fast and I thought I did something wrong. He went around me and spend up the road. Very pleasant time.
 
#31 ·
Simple answer: Make it very obvious to the assailant that you have a nice bullet with his name on it, keep your sights on his forehead and call the police, this is called a citizens arrest. Now if he produces a weapon, with the obvious intent of killing his victim or you, put two in his head, do not shoot to wound, he'll just sue you.
 
#32 ·
I would avoid the fight...avoid the place where fights are likely to occur...should I be approached by someone who acts with intent to harm....that is one of the reason I carry a gun....don't bring a fist to a gun fight

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk
 
#34 ·
I'm an old man...never pick a fight with an old man...:nono:

He'll either call 911 or...:brutal7:
 
#35 ·
If I see some guy or a few guys bracing a little kid, older fellow, or a woman, I may watch for awhile. Hopefully, they will notice me watching them and understand that the odds have changed. If he or they get out of line, then I call the cops. If it gets wild in a hurry, then yeah, I gotta jump in after calling the cops. I cannot stand by and watch somebody with no way to defend themselves get their head busted. I find it unlikely that they will continue their assault on the victim with me watching, and not come after me as well. I dunno. Too soft hearted, I guess. But if I knew somebody was in a lot of trouble and did nothing to stop it, I'd have a hard time shaving.
 
#36 ·
You started asking one question, but ended with another. The first scenario was a barfight type situation, the second is a group of people ganging up on someone else.

IANAL, but: the answers to your questions lie in the concept of Disparity of Force - check your state laws. I'll use MO as an example; if a group of people are beating/raping a single person lethal force is justified, either by the victim or a witness. If the barfight is btwn two people who are very different in size/abilities, like one outweighs another by 100 lbs, one is disabled (temporarily or permanently), etc, disparity of force applies. Anyone who carries should know this if it applies in their state. Inanimate objects not normally considered weapons can be considered lethal weapons under certain circumstances. Do your research. Once you find your legal answer, ask yourself if you are willing to get involved and under what circumstances.
 
#41 ·
You started asking one question, but ended with another. The first scenario was a barfight type situation, the second is a group of people ganging up on someone else..
Just throwing hypotheticals out there. I don't rememeber asking about a barfight, I don't go into bars and even stated that earlier.

IANAL, but: the answers to your questions lie in the concept of Disparity of Force - check your state laws. I'll use MO as an example; if a group of people are beating/raping a single person lethal force is justified, either by the victim or a witness. If the barfight is btwn two people who are very different in size/abilities, like one outweighs another by 100 lbs, one is disabled (temporarily or permanently), etc, disparity of force applies. Anyone who carries should know this if it applies in their state. Inanimate objects not normally considered weapons can be considered lethal weapons under certain circumstances. Do your research. Once you find your legal answer, ask yourself if you are willing to get involved and under what circumstances.
Our state laws here in PA justifies lethal forced used against a/the perps that are attacking and raping another. I don't know if I wasn't reading it good enough but I didn't see the word beating.
 
#43 ·
Most of us are not LEOs. They receive training to deal with situations almost daily that we citizens might encounter only once or twice in a lifetime. Granted intervention seems warranted when a life is at stake but an understanding of the situation is a must. I know some states have a good samaritan law designed to protect those applying needed medical help. I don't think those laws extend to citizens trying to protect other citizens from needing that medical help in the first place.
When the SHTF I hope and pray I can make a proper decision about my course of action.
 
#46 ·
One person's good witness is the next one's indifferently depraved. What I will or will not do will not be governed by the endorsement or castigation rendered by anonymous internet posters. Do what you are cut out for and equipped for, no more, no less.
 
#48 ·
Fist fights are a moot point when carrying. Carrying itself leads to a higher level of thinking (or it should). Distance yourself from thinking bad thoughts when you carry even though it may be difficult at times.
 
#50 ·
I avoid all fights while carrying a gun. However, I understand the point of your question.

I've said this many times... The courts in general, prosecutors and LEO's specifically take a pretty dim view at people shooting unarmed opponents. Something about it not being a fair fight kind of thing.

If I am accosted by a stranger, which for all intents and purposes appears to be unarmed. I am more than likely not going to shoot him just to avoid getting punched in the face a few times.

No one wants to be in a fist fight. No one wants to get punched in the face. It hurts! But if someone accosts you who is in your general age range, size range and many other factors, you are usually not justified in using deadly force to repel an attacker who is seen by the courts (and witnesses) as being unarmed.

It would really behoove you to become intimately familiar with how the concept of disparity of force works. As civilians, we are not allowed to use deadly force to repel non-deadly attacks. An unarmed robber is usually not considered a deadly threat.

Does that mean he can't kill you with his bare hands? No!

Does that mean that an initial non-lethal threat or assault, can not turn into an incident where deadly force is suddenly justified? Of course it can.

It's always best to have a less lethal means of dealing with incidents which start out appearing to be a non-lethal attack.

You should know that not every attack, or mugging will be viewed by authorities as a lethal encounter. Otherwise, every person who ever got mugged would be dead. And not every mugging does the attacker have a deadly weapon.

What I'm saying is that you should be prepared to go hands on with a scary dude until a weapon is clearly made visible or a disparity of force is created to such an extent that your life now becomes seriously at risk of being killed or permanently crippled.

If you don't want to go hands on with an unarmed attacker, you may consider carrying something like pepper spray, electronic stun device or some other less lethal means of dealing with an unarmed assault.

You should become intimately knowledgeable with the concept of disparity of force and what it entails. It's not some loose term to throw around in court and expect using that term is going to convince a jury that you were justified in shooting an otherwise unarmed citizen.

Because I can assure you, once you kill that thug, he will cease to be a thug, and will become a model citizen that you shot down in cold blood, presented to the jury. If you did not know his criminal record before you shot him, the jury won't know about his criminal record either. Even if it turns out he was a serial rapist and baby killer out on parole. Not unless your attorney is very, very crafty at getting such things sneaked in under the prosecutors nose.

The thing is, you have to be prepared for anything when getting accosted. Things can change on a dime. What started out as something which would be considered non-lethal can quickly become a deadly threat if your attacker starts to get the best of you in a scuffle. But until that bar is reached... Until it becomes clear that there is a disparity of force, and you are now being relentlessly beat to a point you can't defend yourself, you can get gigged for being premature on the draw.
 
#58 ·
So according to you I'm supposed to wait until I'm well on the way to getting my ass kicked "good" before I decide if I should use deadly force? Male cow droppings. Let me know how all that works out for you.

I don't know if you've been in a serious fight or not. I know I have and if I remember correctly I'd have called in a air strike if I could have.

People on here post about how nothing goes as planned during a self defense shooting. It's the same in a fist fight.
 
#51 ·
Here us what I've learned in life, especially from being an LEO pretty much my entire adult life;

Every once in a while, a man comes across another that needs to be jaw jacked for the greater good of society. I'm OK with that. I certainly do not advocate that it's a good idea to do so, and being armed certainly can create a headache for all involved, but to do or not do is a decision only you can make at the time.

Never ever assert yourself into somebody elses battles, you will never win, come out a head, or even break even.
 
#52 ·
At 60+ I'm too old to be getting into fist fights. I'll fight my (and someone elses) battles with my cell phone, unless it becomes a life and death situation.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top