Would you get into a fist fight while carrying?

Would you get into a fist fight while carrying?

This is a discussion on Would you get into a fist fight while carrying? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know the title is misleading. I'm not that stupid and arrogant to look for fights while carrying. Hell I actually have cut out going ...

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Thread: Would you get into a fist fight while carrying?

  1. #1
    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Would you get into a fist fight while carrying?

    I know the title is misleading. I'm not that stupid and arrogant to look for fights while carrying. Hell I actually have cut out going to the bar and club strips in downtown but lets just say hypothetically you don't want to shoot but you're the only immediate help in the area. What do you do?

    What got me thinking about this hypothetical situation is the gang/group voilence that our youth and senior citizens is facing today. I can remember being jumped some days when I was walking home from the school bus... I was a nerd lol. Or for a more recent and more serious example, a young gifted man in Chicago trying to escape a gang fight then being beat senseless with a railroad tie he died that day or a couple years back there was a high school girl that was gang raped at Prom. Or say you stumble upon a home invasion in progress against a elderly couple. I'm not trying to be a super hero but other than calling the cops what can or what should I do if I saw a innocent being harmed? What should my mindset be about situations like this?

    I live in PA so shooting in self defense for another victim or a voilent crime (such as rape) is "justified" but again that's all up to a jury of my peers. So I have thought about this.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Be a good witness. Call 911

    You may have a gun but you are not LEO!

    You are more likely to get yourself in trouble than you are to help someone.

    Modern society is much too litigious to be a hero. If you're LEO, you have a department and a union covering your butt. If you're just a citizen, how much are you willing to lose to be a hero?
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    ideally calling 911 and advising them of an ongoing event leading up to telling them you are legally armed and asking if you should get involved.
    if they give you the green light--in court that may be what decideds your verdicts.
    but the time spent on the phone with 911 may make action on your part moot...as in, by the time they get done with 40 questions--and them not wanting to expose themselves legally for your actions....

    well what was happening aint no more.

    its too late now for you to make a difference.


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    Your morals, experiences and level of training & ability will all have a heavy influence on how you'll react to such a situation.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  5. #5
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Yes In Texas we to have the right to help others to. Rape is a very hard one to get involved in and should be questioned but like all others YOU need to use common sense. To those that say be a good witness I say bull-s, if you feel the need to get involved; do it but make sure you understand the situation. Man and woman in a heated argument and he slaps her: witness. Armed man robbing a C-store while you are there: I say yea. Being a good witness has its price tag to; the haunting memory that you could have made a difference but didn't. They are right WE are not cops but the laws are written so we can get involved if we choose to. I carry a gun but that is not a deciding factor, I would get involved without it for I am my brother’s keeper
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    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    Well, since I'm pushing 70 now, getting involved in any kind of physical confrontation to help someone other than a family member is pretty much out of the question now! The old saying, "the spirist is willing but the flesh is weak" is kinda appropriate. I'd be calling 911 and be a good witness unless it was a VERY grave situation where ALL the facts were known and the use of lethal force was obviously justified. Just sayin.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Yes In Texas we to have the right to help others to. Rape is a very hard one to get involved in and should be questioned but like all others YOU need to use common sense. To those that say be a good witness I say bull-s, if you feel the need to get involved; do it but make sure you understand the situation. Man and woman in a heated argument and he slaps her: witness. Armed man robbing a C-store while you are there: I say yea. Being a good witness has its price tag to; the haunting memory that you could have made a difference but didn't. They are right WE are not cops but the laws are written so we can get involved if we choose to. I carry a gun but that is not a deciding factor, I would get involved without it for I am my brother’s keeper
    This is very reasonable. As for the OP, you shouldn't be trying to break up petty stuff. If there is a legitimate felony being committed against a person, then it may be favorable to intervene. But personally, these situations are rare in that they have to be clear cut. It's unwise to walk into the middle of a situation that you know nothing about and try to be the good guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darebear View Post
    I know the title is misleading. I'm not that stupid and arrogant to look for fights while carrying. Hell I actually have cut out going to the bar and club strips in downtown but lets just say hypothetically you don't want to shoot but you're the only immediate help in the area. What do you do?

    What got me thinking about this hypothetical situation is the gang/group voilence that our youth and senior citizens is facing today. I can remember being jumped some days when I was walking home from the school bus... I was a nerd lol. Or for a more recent and more serious example, a young gifted man in Chicago trying to escape a gang fight then being beat senseless with a railroad tie he died that day or a couple years back there was a high school girl that was gang raped at Prom. Or say you stumble upon a home invasion in progress against a elderly couple. I'm not trying to be a super hero but other than calling the cops what can or what should I do if I saw a innocent being harmed? What should my mindset be about situations like this?

    I live in PA so shooting in self defense for another victim or a voilent crime (such as rape) is "justified" but again that's all up to a jury of my peers. So I have thought about this.
    I think if you have to ask this question you need to somehow find the time and money to purchase some training. If I remember correctly, PA has no training requirement. You pay your 25 bucks to the state and that's it.

    The training I'm talking about is not about how to shoot. It is about applying the laws of your state on use of lethal force to
    various situations. It is about understanding what to do in various situations-- which may be anything from run, call 911, use non-lethal force, use lethal force. It all depends.

    You sound like a young man. I'm an old man. I've read 4 books which I think you need to read.

    1) In the Gravest Extreme
    2) Verbal Judo
    3) Little Black Book of Violence-- what every young man needs to know about violence
    4) The Gift of Fear.

    Take some time to get yourself an education in matters of self defense; an intellectual foundation which will guide your decision making, and which will also help keep you away from trouble.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  9. #9
    Member Array darebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think if you have to ask this question you need to somehow find the time and money to purchase some training. If I remember correctly, PA has no training requirement. You pay your 25 bucks to the state and that's it.

    The training I'm talking about is not about how to shoot. It is about applying the laws of your state on use of lethal force to
    various situations. It is about understanding what to do in various situations-- which may be anything from run, call 911, use non-lethal force, use lethal force. It all depends.

    You sound like a young man. I'm an old man. I've read 4 books which I think you need to read.

    1) In the Gravest Extreme
    2) Verbal Judo
    3) Little Black Book of Violence-- what every young man needs to know about violence
    4) The Gift of Fear.

    Take some time to get yourself an education in matters of self defense; an intellectual foundation which will guide your decision making, and which will also help keep you away from trouble.
    You're right about our training requirements in PA and I will continue to seek training. JD just put me on to the FIRE academy. 25 dollars, no priors and the conceal carry permit is yours. I actually had a local, long time serving and well known cop be a reference on my application... I did my senior project on his job, the PA laws are quite "laxed".

    But can I have your opinion about intervening on a situation in which someone else's life and health is at risk?

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    Do you feel sorry for lazy folks who never worked a day in their life and are destitute on the street living out of dumpsters?

    If not then you shouldn't be overly concerned about "victims" who's only taken the steps of paying taxes to ensure their personal protection. In these cases they're getting exactly the protection they paid for.

    My carry is for me and my family alone. Which isn't to say I'm not going to act in the gravest of circumstances (not a robbery but folks getting MURDERED) but I'm also not going to treat my ccw card as though it were a badge or cape, Superman was bulletproof. I'M NOT

    posted via tapatalk using android.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.W.Dale View Post
    Do you feel sorry for lazy folks who never worked a day in their life and are destitute on the street living out of dumpsters?

    If not then you shouldn't be overly concerned about "victims" who's only taken the steps of paying taxes to ensure their personal protection. In these cases they're getting exactly the protection they paid for.

    My carry is for me and my family alone. Which isn't to say I'm not going to act in the gravest of circumstances (not a robbery but folks getting MURDERED) but I'm also not going to treat my ccw card as though it were a badge or cape, Superman was bulletproof. I'M NOT.
    Blunt but persuasive. This is where I stand as well.

    I've posted this before in threads like this, but I've never received an answer. You don't need a gun to make a difference. Many armed criminals have been stopped by grappling, etc. Why is it that when people are carrying they suddenly feel a "responsibility" to intervene? The gun shouldn't make the difference.

    For me, I don't feel a responsibility to get involved if I'm not carrying. Ditto if I am carrying. (Yes, this rule does not apply to bizarre hypotheticals of manifest degenerate evil and where you have the "drop of all drops" to intervene, so don't go there).

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    Quote Originally Posted by darebear View Post
    You're right about our training requirements in PA and I will continue to seek training. JD just put me on to the FIRE academy. 25 dollars, no priors and the conceal carry permit is yours. I actually had a local, long time serving and well known cop be a reference on my application... I did my senior project on his job, the PA laws are quite "laxed".

    But can I have your opinion about intervening on a situation in which someone else's life and health is at risk?
    That is one of the most dangerous things you might do and it comes with totally unpredictable results.

    It is to be avoided almost entirely unless you actually know the full situation. If you don't know the full situation you might
    be doing some considerable harm. The lady screaming for help might be fighting with an undercover agent; just one example of many possible things you would have no way of knowing about.

    To be sure, there might be situations where you are morally and legally right to intervene but you also have to take your own safety and your value to your family into account.

    You really need to read the books I suggested and also read the many scenario threads on this forum. They are one of the reasons I hang around here. Each scenario has nuances and twists and turns. Often the OP of a scenario thread is absolutely certain s/he did the correct thing, or would have done a certain thing if the scenario was real; and then they get hammered by some experienced folk here, many of whom are LEOs, attorneys, DAs.

    Getting your license in particularly a state such as PA with no training requirement puts you in an awkward situation. Without taking it upon yourself to get educated about your state's laws on use of force and use of lethal force, you put yourself at very considerable risk of making a bad mistake.
    DC, l1a1 and claude clay like this.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    There are those who :
    1* Call 911 when they see the building on fire & that's it.
    2* Those who just watch the building burn.
    3* Those who rush in to make sure everyone is out.
    4* Those who will go in if necessary to rescue someone.

    You have to decide which you are. You have just seen several posts cover about each one of these. One thing I've learned about myself , is I'm neither a # 1 or a # 2.

    I'll do what I need to do, at the level I need to do it ...when I need to do it. I'll do what I feel capable of handling and doing at the time, based upon the situation and how I assess it.
    21bubba, kmagnuss, DC and 7 others like this.
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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darebear View Post
    You're right about our training requirements in PA and I will continue to seek training. JD just put me on to the FIRE academy. 25 dollars, no priors and the conceal carry permit is yours. I actually had a local, long time serving and well known cop be a reference on my application... I did my senior project on his job, the PA laws are quite "laxed".

    But can I have your opinion about intervening on a situation in which someone else's life and health is at risk?
    Your heart is in the right place, what you need IMO is some mindset training. Hopy mentioned some really good books, I think you should also study LT.COl. David Grossman. Look into his "The Bullet Proof Mind" lecture on youtube. It will help with the questions you seek answers to...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    There are those who :
    1* Call 911 when they see the building on fire & that's it.
    2* Those who just watch the building burn.
    3* Those who rush in to make sure everyone is out.
    4* Those who will go in if necessary to rescue someone.

    You have to decide which you are. You have just seen several posts cover about each one of these. One thing I've learned about myself , is I'm neither a # 1 or a # 2.

    I'll do what I need to do, at the level I need to do it ...when I need to do it. I'll do what I feel capable of handling and doing at the time, based upon the situation and how I assess it.

    Very well said. Wish I could take credit for it.

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