Junkie pulls out 10" survival knife!(visiting a city with no CCW reciprocity)
This is a discussion on Junkie pulls out 10" survival knife!(visiting a city with no CCW reciprocity) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am sure I will not be the only person to make a first post about something like this but here goes anyway. I have ...
February 21st, 2012 05:33 AM
Junkie pulls out 10" survival knife!(visiting a city with no CCW reciprocity)
I am sure I will not be the only person to make a first post about something like this but here goes anyway. I have been a visitor to the site for some time now. I have had my CPL here in Washington since November of last year. Since I received my permit, I have carried every day until this weekend. I practice on a weekly basis with a group of friends running scenarios, and drills, and have been around guns since I was a small child. I am in my mid 30's, and am a very responsible gun owner, and citizen in general.
My girlfriend and I went to Oregon this extended weekend to visit a family member, and do not yet hold an Oregon CCW permit. I made a fateful decision to leave my sidearm at home (at the relatives house) when my girlfriend and I went downtown to do some shopping sunday afternoon. We parked our car on a busy street in the middle of downtown Portland (near Hyde park), and proceeded to shop for just short of one hour. We left the store and as we approached the corner we parked on we heard our car alarm start to sound. We were just feet from the corner, and my first thought (which I vocalized) was that I didn't think I had bumped the panic button. As we rounded the corner my girlfriend said hey theres glass on the ground, which I dismissed (learned my lesson there) because I was looking at a dirty looking vagrant that was quickly walking away from the car with a ski mask over the lower part of his face. My girlfriend said "hey that guy just broke into my car, get him"
Without thinking twice I gave chase. As he reached the corner he broke into a run, as I reached the corner he rounded the next one. It was just like any foot chase you've seen in the movies, complete with a couple pointing me in the wrong direction as I rounded the third corner, until I vocalized that he had broke into my car at which point they silently mouthed that he was in the store behind me, there were three doors directly behind me, and they could not point it out from where they stood, and they were reluctant to step close enough to show me which door. At this point someone on a bicycle rides up, and stops in front of me on the sidewalk (later it becomes obvious he was an accomplice) at which point eh perp runs out of the store and across the street. I take off after him, yelling for someone to call the police, he had robbed my girlfriend. We run 2 more blocks uphill, and he tires out. and drops his things and turns on me. He sad something like "what the **** do you want?!" I said "give me my **** back man", he yells "I don't have your ****", at which point I grab the bag he had dropped onto the corner, he goes crazy eye, reaches into his interior coat or waistband, and comes out waving a 10" survival knife at me ( it turns out he broke the window with the hilt, the police recovered it right away with blood on it) I back up yelling "call the police, its all you man go", at which point the stranger on the bike rolls up on me again from behind, drops the bike and starts pushing me as the perp with the knife grabs his things and takes off running again into the park. I shove the bike rider, and take chase again into the nearby park, still yelling to call the police, he has a knife. As I round the corner I come up against a wall of roughly 150-200 homeless junkies being fed in Hyde park. He had completely blended into the crowd, and as dumb as I sound for taking chase again after seeing the knife I was not dumb enough to walk into a crowd of 200 homeless junkies.
I hotfooted it back to the car where my girlfriend, and a witness had the police on the line. The witness who called the police was actually a homeless recovering addict herself who had seen it happen and was rather disgusted at it. I got a response within 5 minutes from roughly 5 Portland Metro division units who promptly went into the park, and recovered the knife, apparently he ditched it somewhere in the park. The first thing the 2nd officer on the scene said when he saw the knife was " it's too bad your not a CCW holder", to which I responded "I am, but you guys don't have reciprocity with Washington, so I left it at my sisters house today to abide by local laws" The 3rd officer who had arrived said, "thats too bad, this was a clear case of a justifiable shooting. You saw someone breaking into your car, you gave chase, he pulled a knife on you, Oregon CCW or not, there would not have been charges filed" The officer then took me up to the park where I scanned the crowd, but was unable to spot either of the perpetrators that had been involved. My girlfriend, and I drove back to my sisters where I promptly put my G23 back where it belongs, at 3'oclock.
I realize that I made some very unfortunate decisions, that almost resulted in me not going home. I have taken steps to obtain a non resident CCW permit for oregon, as I visit regularly, and truly love Portland (this unfortunate incident aside). I am also looking into some additional defensive handgun training from one of the local training establishments.
I want to be clear that I am happy that no one was hurt. As is probably the case with most here, the last thing I to do is take another persons life, but I will not hesitate if I feel that my life, or the lives of those that I love are in danger. I understand that there are probably a million things I did wrong, and I welcome any criticism that might come my way (please be gentle!). I tell this story in hopes that someone else may learn from my mistakes. I appreciate the resource this site provides, and I hope to be able to contribute some day.
February 21st, 2012 07:58 AM
I'm not too interested in what your girlfriend or the cop says about it. Your headline in the next day's paper would have been: Vigilante guns down junkie after chasing him six blocks.
You emphasize the fact he pulled a knife. True enough. AFTER you chased him and well after you had several opportunities to break off the encounter.
What does this scenario have to do with you having or not having a gun? To me, all I see is you racing after some guy(s) who broke into your GF's car, leaving your girlfriend to fend for herself, and trying to catch or corner the thief to retrieve stuff that probably isn't worth $50.
You're like a dog chasing cars. It's all well and good until you catch one, and have no idea what to do with it. I can't for the life of me figure out why you felt you needed to run this guy down.
I would have grabbed my girlfriend, run toward safety, and called the police from a safe place. I realize I wouldn't have looked like the tough, athletic guy, but the GF and I would have been a lot safer, and even if I had a gun, I wouldn't have needed it.
Is my response cowardly? Or prudent? Only you can decide.
The training you are seeking out is teaching you how to employ your firearm (and other weapons). It seems there should be an equal emphasis on why and when.
February 21st, 2012 08:07 AM
1. Glad you and girlfriend are OK. 2. Assuming I believe your story (remember, I do not know you at all but I take your word for your thread story and apologize now if this comment disturbs you) , it amazes me how so many on this forum seem to have "situations"---I am 70, have lived most of that time in NY/NJ and have parked a zillion times all over the place and never, ever had a "situation". 3. What did you have in the car that was so tempting? 4. Not knowing "Hyde Park", are we talking about a nice shopping area or are you in the middle of Bagdhad?--sounds like the slime of the world lives near where you parked. 5. If #4 is slimeville, SA would have told me to go somewhere else to park or just forget about shopping--as I said, I am 70 and I use SA all the time--sometimes to my disadvantage--I would rather be safe than sorry. 6. I have insurance on my car and its contents and all is replaceable---I AM NOT.
Not so sure if I would have done what you did--you came close to having your tutu cut from your body over "stuff". I am sure replies will tell you that what you did is exactly what they would have done. Hey-to each his own.
Again--just happy you are OK and I apologize if I am out of line in what or how I have replied--just airing my thoughts.
February 21st, 2012 08:14 AM
Welcome to the forum.
As to the incident. I would not have chased after the guy. Call 911 and let the police handle it. There was nothing in the car that was worth losing your life over, or risking serious injury.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
NRA Life Member
February 21st, 2012 08:52 AM
The old idiom "Discretion is the better part of valor" applies here.
You risked everything over some stolen goods. It appears there was no lethal threat present prior to you giving chase.
Welcome to DC. The name of the game here is self defense, not law enforcement.
You Can Also Find Me On Personal Defense Forum Dot Com
February 21st, 2012 09:00 AM
Always hard to second-guess and armchair quarterback these things -- in another thread someone wisely pointed out that the best response always comes to us after the fact.
Glad you're okay, but unfortunately I'm imagining a bunch of less happy endings.
I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
1 Thess. 5:16-18
February 21st, 2012 09:24 AM
I always heard Oregon is odd and ultra left! You should have stayed with the little lady!
February 21st, 2012 09:40 AM
First, welcome to the forum.
Secondly, you didn't really ask any questions, though you've posted this story for others to learn from your mistakes.
I've got some questions:
It seems this was your girlfriends car who prompted you to "get him". What did this guy steal?
The citizens who initially misdirected you to the BG's whereabouts, then quickly recanted, then clammed up? That's a bit weird.
The police can pretty much make any comments they want but it seems odd in the "heat of a chase" that a policeman would be reminiscing about " it's too bad your not a CCW holder", and another mentioning later that it's a clear case of a justifiable shooting......and no charges filed, etc. Then one takes you up to the park to scan the crowd. I think it's fine if the police said all of this, but I think the proper time would have been later for this talk, after ya'll exhausted the search for the two BG's. Just sayin', I'd be aggravated at 2A talk while the BG's are gaining ground away from me.
What's the current status? It sounds like your car break-in evolved into the level of a "justifiable shooting" and the police/detectives ought to be particularly interested in pursuing this farther. Did the local police know these guys based on your description of them? After exhausting the search of the immediate area, and not finding them, what happened then?
I don't mean to be picky about your story, and I know that things can happen and unfold, plus I wasn't there, but what you wrote is all I've got to go on, and it generated some questions in my mind.
February 21st, 2012 09:57 AM
I have often chosen a course of action and later scratched my head wondering where my brain was. So I don't want to beat you up too badly... but...
You left your girlfriend alone in a bad section of town, where there is proven crime, where bad guys clearly have accomplices... to save a 'thing' which was covered by insurance. Aside from the obvious risks to your OWN life - nothing like being assaulted with a deadly weapon by two bad guys to prove that point! I certainly understand righteous indignation (hey, I read the papers about what happens in Washington DC, for starters). And I wanted to be a cop at one point. But I'm not a cop and you're not either. You had no mandate, no backup, no 'tools' (what were you going to do, sit on both him and his buddy?), and you abandoned someone who you DID have at least some sort of mandate to protect.
And your gun is not a talisman to ward off evil; a threat after you escalated isn't a 'clean shoot'; and you ain't in Texas.
Wave at him as he leaves, thanking God you weren't a moment earlier while he was closer and more of a threat. Turn around, get girlfriend to a safe place, call the cops, get the report, brush the glass from the seat, and while buffeted by wind during the drive congratulate yourself on being able to drive home and having the girlfriend with you. Do this EVEN IF you have a weapon with you.
OK, all that said... Glad to have you here (and really glad the two of you are OK) - this is a great forum with LOTS of wisdom hanging low for you to just reach out and grab. Please don't take offense at these good people here who suggest you should have taken another course of action: they CARE. For you and your girlfriend. We want to see you two go home tonight rather than one or the other or both in the hospital or morgue. Please take our words as what they are: clear sight from older heads, wishing you well and hoping to spare you some scars. (I say older because I at least will lose interest after just thinking about running.) Again, glad you're OK!
February 21st, 2012 10:14 AM
....and on first posts too. I think somebody out there has a LOT of screen names and really needs attention.
Originally Posted by kelcarry
And you know I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view. -- John Prine (A Good Time)
February 21st, 2012 11:45 AM
Welcome to the forum. Carrying a weapon makes the heat of the moment decisions even more critical. There are a countless number of things that can go wrong.
You left your GF alone in a bad area.
If you had been carrying your weapon, you would have more than likely reached for it at some point. When would you have reached for it?
When you were chasing him? Hard to explain self defense when you are chasing someone with a gun in your hand.
When he pulled the knife? If he saw you reaching, he could have defended himself by stabbing you. Yeah, I know he started it but at that point it would a "him or me" thought for him.
You could have shot him or missed him and hit an innocent bystander.
All over stuff.
Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!
Stupidity should be painful.
February 21st, 2012 03:05 PM
@ ppkheat we were not able to find anything he stole, we were on the scene too quickly for him to get anything. The couple who clammed up came down to the car after it was over, and said that they thought it was some sort of game. I realize that the police don't really know the law at all times or situations, and cant really make a call as to whether it was justifiable or not, I added it because it was all a part of the situation. The current status is they have a knife with blood, and possible prints, and I have a police report with a case#. The police did not know them from the description, Portland has a huge homeless population, and apparently every weekend they bring them all downtown for a free lunch, and car prowling activities. If there were prints on the knife, chances are he will be picked up eventually for something, and I will be contacted is what the responding officer told me when they left. They did seem very interested, but I am not sure if anything will ever come of it.
@ MadMac, the defensive handgun training I am signing up for does include why, and when to shoot, I appreciate the suggestion.
@Okemo, I am not sure what your saying but it was an invaluable contribution to the thread.
@Paymeister, I appreciate everything you said and will take it to heart.
I appreciate the comments, and I came to see what people thought I did wrong. I know that I should not have not have chased, him. There is no disputing that in my mind. Leaving my girlfriend alone, chasing some guy down in a strange area that I am not familiar with, all complete bonehead moves. You wouldn't think a 34 year old honor student would make those decisions , but I still have much to learn. The reason there was no questions asked in the post is because to me there was no question that I made a lot of mistakes that could have ended tragically. I am just hoping that someone else will have the opportunity to learn from my experience, and not make the same mistakes I did.
February 21st, 2012 03:29 PM
Wow, 34 YO and still an honor student (snicker)...
Honestly, I do appreciate your posting... even if it were totally bogus, I would appreciate it... You pointed out some things we all need to remind ourselves of...
One thing I find interesting... your SO says "get him!"
There are ladies that like to have their honor (and apparently their "stuff") protected... There are ladies that yell "Stop! It's just stuff!" because they know you're more valuable to them than their stuff (at least). You might ask her which category she falls into...
And keep this in mind, even if you'd had a valid Oregon permit... It would not have made you able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, not made you "Shaft," Serpcio or any other (ahem) supercop.
If, until you are able to attend your more advanced courses you'd like to spend some quality time learning... I would like to suggest In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.
Mas has personally confirmed (within the last week)it is still in print, so don't buy the high priced versions... you can still buy this book new. A quick search says that BAM has it available for 12.95 with a 2 week wait?
Read it a few times, there is much gold in it...and it's a really short read for an honor student... (all the honor student stuff is just pokin' a bit of fun)
It could be worse!
February 21st, 2012 03:34 PM
February 21st, 2012 03:34 PM
Those liberals! So obsessed with flash-mobs and street-art they think everything's a game
Originally Posted by .3O8junkie
On a more serious note, I can't believe what the cop said to you. Also, let the fact that the knife had blood on it be a warning for you. It's a sign your blood could've ended up on that knife, all over what could've just been a broken window or a couple possessions.
Don't get me wrong, having anything stolen from me or any of my stuff messed with absolutely enrages and infuriates me, but not enough to risk my life.
"Shoot low boys, they're riding Shetland ponies." -Lewis Grizzard
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