First Condition Orange While Carrying (long)

First Condition Orange While Carrying (long)

This is a discussion on First Condition Orange While Carrying (long) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, so I am relatively new here, but have been carrying for 5 years. I had my first condition orange since carrying today (I don't ...

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Thread: First Condition Orange While Carrying (long)

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    First Condition Orange While Carrying (long)

    Ok, so I am relatively new here, but have been carrying for 5 years. I had my first condition orange since carrying today (I don't count the burglar alarm scenario, b/c I was at home), and it taught me several things.

    Here's the story...

    I was at an event in a city (being vague on purpose). We were stationed by a building against the public sidewalk. The sidewalk was about 6 feet wide. Our backs were facing the row of buildings on the block. It was daylight.

    After being there for a while, I notice two very shady looking characters walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street. They were yelling random strange things to themselves and generally acting like they were either drunk or high. I thought they were going to progress on their way, when they caught sight of us, and hightailed it across the street to us. At this point, I make sure that my three layers (four if you count the coat, it was 15 degrees outside) will not get bunched up on the handle of my XD I'm carrying IWB.

    They get within about 8 feet of me (closer to others), and start asking weird questions, like they were trying to stall while sizing us up, and making some mocking comments as well. The one BG kept an eye on me, while the other one talked. I kept my right hand stationary, pulling back my jacket a little bit, like I wasn't sure whether I was going to put my hand in my pocket or not (to give me faster access to my XD if I needed it). I kept a very close eye on their hands. Finally, the BG that was watching me just decided to split, and hightailed it down the sidewalk, calling his friend's name (who was oblivious he left). The second BG left once he realized his friend was gone. The whole thing lasted maybe 20 seconds, but it taught me a lot.

    1. 8 feet is way, way too close (sometimes it can't be helped; we were in a stationary position)
    2. Sometimes pocket carry is more advantageous than IWB (left the bodyguard at home for some reason; had I had it, I could have had it in hand during the confrontation, instead of hoping I could draw my XD fast enough if needed)
    3. Tunnel vision is hard to combat (I can tell you everything about the BGs' hands, but not a lot about their faces)
    4. Practice for how you carry (I have never practiced drawing with several layers on, and was NOT confident in my ability to do so today).


    Well, I've reviewed this in my head all day, and I'm sure I did several things wrong, so let's have it...


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Seems fine to me. You recognized an unusual situation and were extra vigilant and prepared to act. Not much more you can do. Can't just go around shooting junkies.
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    Ok, so I am relatively new here, but have been carrying for 5 years. I had my first condition orange since carrying today (I don't count the burglar alarm scenario, b/c I was at home), and it taught me several things.

    Here's the story...

    I was at an event in a city (being vague on purpose). We were stationed by a building against the public sidewalk. The sidewalk was about 6 feet wide. Our backs were facing the row of buildings on the block. It was daylight.

    After being there for a while, I notice two very shady looking characters walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street. They were yelling random strange things to themselves and generally acting like they were either drunk or high. I thought they were going to progress on their way, when they caught sight of us, and hightailed it across the street to us. At this point, I make sure that my three layers (four if you count the coat, it was 15 degrees outside) will not get bunched up on the handle of my XD I'm carrying IWB.

    They get within about 8 feet of me (closer to others), and start asking weird questions, like they were trying to stall while sizing us up, and making some mocking comments as well. The one BG kept an eye on me, while the other one talked. I kept my right hand stationary, pulling back my jacket a little bit, like I wasn't sure whether I was going to put my hand in my pocket or not (to give me faster access to my XD if I needed it). I kept a very close eye on their hands. Finally, the BG that was watching me just decided to split, and hightailed it down the sidewalk, calling his friend's name (who was oblivious he left). The second BG left once he realized his friend was gone. The whole thing lasted maybe 20 seconds, but it taught me a lot.

    1. 8 feet is way, way too close (sometimes it can't be helped; we were in a stationary position)
    2. Sometimes pocket carry is more advantageous than IWB (left the bodyguard at home for some reason; had I had it, I could have had it in hand during the confrontation, instead of hoping I could draw my XD fast enough if needed)
    3. Tunnel vision is hard to combat (I can tell you everything about the BGs' hands, but not a lot about their faces)
    4. Practice for how you carry (I have never practiced drawing with several layers on, and was NOT confident in my ability to do so today).


    Well, I've reviewed this in my head all day, and I'm sure I did several things wrong, so let's have it...
    I have a couple of questions...

    1. An event?, What kind of event? Size of crowd on street?

    2. We were stationed by a building against the public sidewalk.??? Who is "We"? Yourself and other male friends? Yourself and family? etc..

    3. I notice two very shady looking characters walking down the sidewalk on the other side of the street. They were yelling random strange things to themselves and generally acting like they were either drunk or high. I thought they were going to progress on their way, when they caught sight of us, and hightailed it across the street to us.???? It's quite strange, that two hopped up individuals, on the other side of the street, picked YOU AND ACCOMPANYING PEOPLE out of a potential crowd or other folks across the street from them, and just decided to cross over and confront you with absolutely no provocation or reason that was stated in your account. What do you suppose attracted them ONLY to YOU and ACCOMPANYING PEOPLE???? What made them "hightail" it across the street to YOU???

    4. Your post states you were in Condition Orange...Sir, I submit to you, that IF the aggressors were within 8 feet of you as stated in your post, that you shuld have already been in Condition RED...I recommend you research the Conditions again and here is a link for you: States of Awareness, the Cooper Color Codes


    5. And finally, this is not a question, but a statement...YOU need training in Defensive Pistol, Combat Pistol, Tactical Pistol..Use whatever term you choose. You should work on mindset. How will you react given Situation A, B, C etc... You should work on drawing from your concealment. A weapon does you no good, if you are unable to access and present it when needed...

    Sir, there are four "Survival Principles" which you need to research: Mindset (how will/should you react to a given situation), Tactics (Once you've recognized that a situation is either Condition Orange or Red, what WILL you do), Skill (Recognizing the situation, knowing what you will do in the situation, is only two thirds of the equation, as you MUST have the skill to accomplish both...you get that skill thru TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING), Gear (Is your carry weapon the one you would WANT on you based on your environment...Are you comfortable in being able to manipulate your conceal garments to access your weapon based on the environment, etc etc)

    For some reason, I think there are things you either have neglected to tell us concerning the situation, or have intentionally left out... 2 + 2 isn't quite adding up to 4 in my mind... BUT, with that being said, IF all factors were as you stated, then since you are safe, it is hard to question your rationale and performance, other than tweaking it after the fact. Thanks for providing this scenario to make us all think and evaluate our responses..
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Thanks for the questions and feedback. I left out info on purpose. I was at the event as a representative of an organization, and did not want to give too many details (not sure about liability, etc., I want it to be clear, though, that I was carrying legally).

    To address your questions

    1. The event was small. There were about 10 people in our group. We were stationary. There was no crowd on the street, just people that were walking up and down the sidewalk (about 10-15 people walked by per minute).

    2. Me, three family members, and the rest were non-family members affiliated with our group

    3. I think what attracted the BGs to us is that we were the only stationary people in the vicinity (as we were the only people who were permitted to be set up in that particular location. We were a stationary target. Other than that, I have no idea what made them come over, unless it was the fact that there were seven women and only three men.

    4. Upon reading your link, I would agree that I was condition red. I was ready to fight if they drew a weapon... I was under the mistaken impression that condition red was more decisive (I AM going to draw, not if _____ then I am going to draw)

    5. I couldn't agree more. I have often worked on drawing from concealment, but never in very cold conditions. That was a HUGE oversight on my part.

  5. #5
    Member Array Bricks's Avatar
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    I thought Cooper defined Red as engaged, which was why he left Black out of his color system. The reason being he felt Black was redundant since Red implied you were already in the fight. I'll allow that I havnt done a significant amount of research into Coopers teaching. I do recall a qoute however where he described Orange as being locked on a target as in "I may have to shoot HIM today". If Im correct then the OP's condition sounded more Orange than Red.

    Not trying to be contrary, I realize I could be wrong. Im looking forward to reading more about Jeff Cooper and getting more training.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I have Cooper's Principles of Self Defense, and the OP here was - correctly - in Condition Orange. Red means "going into combat mode." That didn't happen here.

    To the OP: You may wish to investigate OC spray (pepper spray) as a carry adjunct. I carry an ASP Defender on my keyring at all times in addition to a firearm. It's a nice option to have when confronted by a drunken loudmouth or similar in public.

    This case does raise an interesting problem. It was 15 degrees? It's going to be tough to get to a firearm under layers of clothing. A snubbie in a pocket seems like a good carry method. IWB means you'll have a lot of fumbling and sweeping issues.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    I have Cooper's Principles of Self Defense, and the OP here was - correctly - in Condition Orange. Red means "going into combat mode." That didn't happen here.

    To the OP: You may wish to investigate OC spray (pepper spray) as a carry adjunct. I carry an ASP Defender on my keyring at all times in addition to a firearm. It's a nice option to have when confronted by a drunken loudmouth or similar in public.

    This case does raise an interesting problem. It was 15 degrees? It's going to be tough to get to a firearm under layers of clothing. A snubbie in a pocket seems like a good carry method. IWB means you'll have a lot of fumbling and sweeping issues.
    I am planning to pick up so pepper spray this week. I was looking at the Kimber Pepper Baster, but it is large and clunky. I will check out the ASP Defender.

    I was kicking myself for leaving my pocket carry back-up at home... I brought an extra magazine for my XD instead (lot of good that did me). In retrospect, I think my back-up would have been my primary in this case, if I had actually brought it, due to accessibility issues of my IWB. I doubt that I will ever make the mistake of not addressing the way in which clothing affects accessibility to my firearm again.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I can be wrong and I apologize right now, but I read the thread and I just find it to be the first draft of a novel. Even so, it still has credence for specific replies, but ------. Just too many things happening to the writer in such a short time.

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    I don't blame you for you viewing it that way; I read most things with a healthy dose of skepticism myself.

    If I were going to write a fake account, I think I would have spiced it up a bit... BGs hands starting to reach in their pockets, me having to shout in a manly, bass voice for them to stop (which would have terrified them), me having to put my hand on my firearm, or even draw it, everybody thanking me for saving them from the BGs, etc.

    Also, I'm not sure what the too many things that happened are... the BGs saw us, quickly crossed the street to us, sized us up, and left...

  10. #10
    Member Array Jdp751's Avatar
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    First of all you said ((we)) does that mean you and your girlfriend or you and three of your buddies makes a big difference. And you were coming from a event as soon as you noticed something was not right why did you not turn around and go back to all of the people at that event to get out of that bid situation. When you noticed them crossing the street you could have turned around and ran the opposite direction, it would have put distance between you and them and possibly put you in a better area and you would have known for sure if you were there target. You need to be a lot more aware of your surroundings and use that thing between your ears instead of putting your hand in your pants looking for your weapon. standing your own ground is not always the best option. And you need to learn self defense fighting otherwise when they get close they will just take your weapon away. And think about having another option have pepper spray for those times when you do not see a weapon yet to pull your weapon and be justified. It almost sounds like you put yourself in that situation. and how old are you it could also make a big difference in what your options might have been. You either need to take a self-defense pistol class to learn, or pick up a couple good books to read if you cannot afford a class.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Was this a socio-political event? Selling Krispy Kreme donuts? Part of a larger street event? What type of neighborhood?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I can be wrong and I apologize right now, but I read the thread and I just find it to be the first draft of a novel. Even so, it still has credence for specific replies, but ------. Just too many things happening to the writer in such a short time.
    And why do these incidents seem to happen mainly to the newer members? It's as if once you join this forum very little happens in your life. Maybe members really don't need guns...
    suntzu likes this.

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    My very first post here was a long detailed account of what happened to me ten years or so prior. My son found this forum, forwarded the link to me and encouraged me to tell my story and join in.

    No doubt, we may get some fake or embellished stories here from time to time.

    To the OP, I really don't have any serious problems with your story or how you reacted. Obviously something worked for you, it de-escalated. I do like the idea of increasing my options by carrying something like pepper spray also.
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    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    My very first post here was a long detailed account of what happened to me ten years or so prior. My son found this forum, forwarded the link to me and encouraged me to tell my story and join in.

    No doubt, we may get some fake or embellished stories here from time to time.

    To the OP, I really don't have any serious problems with your story or how you reacted. Obviously something worked for you, it de-escalated. I do like the idea of increasing my options by carrying something like pepper spray also.
    Regardless of the scenario (a lot can't remember all the details anyway) it is a learning experience for the OP and makes for conversation and learning points for the inexperienced and experienced.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Badey, In cold weather one should carry a second pistol (of smaller size) in your coat pocket. Possilbly in your off hand pocket. Leave your normal carry in place. I think you did all right. I bet you felt real uncomfortable when you realized you could not reach your weapon. Remember your best wepon is your brain. Used it and avoid situations.
    Semper Fi
    "Marines don't surrender-they win or die." from Brute

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