Dead or alive?

This is a discussion on Dead or alive? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You have the option of "retreat". Up to and until the person actually shows a weapon or intent to harm, it appears that I would ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    You have the option of "retreat". Up to and until the person actually shows a weapon or intent to harm, it appears that I would be of a mind to "retreat", while giving the command to stop. He has NO obligation to obey my command. However, if and when a weapon of any type is displayed, then the situation has escalated to "self defense". I don't like to retreat, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Your weapon is your last resort, not your first option. JMO
    barstoolguru, MadMac and BkCo1 like this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    I agree with the other posts, Drawing because someone is approaching you with a hand behind there back is wrong. Pepper spray would be wise, If I saw someone pull it out and warn me I'd change course.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    You have the option of "retreat". Up to and until the person actually shows a weapon or intent to harm, it appears that I would be of a mind to "retreat", while giving the command to stop. He has NO obligation to obey my command. However, if and when a weapon of any type is displayed, then the situation has escalated to "self defense". I don't like to retreat, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Your weapon is your last resort, not your first option. JMO
    Correct. You can back step away from him with the option of straight arm or if he gets too close a strong aggressive push to his chest with a command to back away. Next on the escalation scale (for me) provided he has shown no weapon would be to strike him. If he shows any life threatening actions...then and only then would I pull my gun.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  5. #19
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Why is he/she shady; what makes them shady? This is profiling and while it is used it can be bad never the less.

    Others had good advice but this is a parking lot so why don't you put something in between you and the "shady" person like a car and see if in fact they are after you before you start to mace or shoot someone else.

    After all you’re "shady" person might be trying to get to the place behind you

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutz275 View Post
    This is a hypothetical question. If you are being approached by a shady individual in a parking lot, you tell him to stop, and he keeps approaching you. After stressing for him to stop and he keeps coming w/ his hand behind his back. Would you shoot to kill or mame? I understand that if you fear for your life, you can shoot to kill, but I would like y'alls input on the situation.
    If a situation such as the one described puts you in fear for your life, I wonder how you can ever leave your house.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    One cannot always rely on verbal commands to an approaching individual, they may be hard of hearing or don't understand the language.

    There is a post in the reference and how to area on how to deal with pests Dealing with PESTS

    Your state laws are another area you should research.

    When I have been approached in parking lots it is usually someone looking for a hand out. So far a hand held up in the "stop" signal has caused them to stop approaching.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    If the person's approach toward me is aggressive and he fails to stop after being commanded to do so, I would then place my hand on my pistol, slightly pulling it from from holster retention. Another forceful command would be issued. If at this point he still shows aggression and has refused to obey, I would be forced to clear leather and show this person I am not kidding. If he then continues to approach with a muzzle pointed at him, I have to assume he intends to harm me in some way.

    My shot(s) would be fired to stop his forward advances.
    Sounds about right to me.
    Remember he has his hand behind his back...you have no idea what he has, Knife? gun? harpoon?
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  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    A valid argument. Since you just added another variable to the OP's scenario I will now throw in that I plan to learn the international sign for "STOP RIGHT THERE NOW!" in the event a deaf person wanting change ever approaches me in an aggressive manner. I'm being serious by the way. No sarcasm there.
    I would say the business end of a large caliber handgun pretty much IS the international sign for "Stop right there"
    Just my 2 cents.
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  10. #24
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    I'm not saying my answer is the right answer, it's just what I'd do.

    I would take a defensive posture, signal to him to stop by sticking my hand out, and yell something along the lines of "STOP, DON'T MOVE" and if he kept coming, I would try to create distance or put something between us, or get behind some cover, and I would draw. I have made it clear that he should stop, but he has made it clear by continuing to move towards me that he has intentions not to speak with me, but something else and that he will not listen to anything I have to say.

    A normal person's response would be to stop when yelled at and say "whoa, calm down. why are you yelling? i just wanted to borrow a lighter." anything other than that is out of the ordinary. Even if drawing might seem uncalled for, I don't want to take a chance.

    It would be good to keep in mind there may be other potential assailants already moving on you under concealment, but my mind would probably be rushing to fast to think of that.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Backing away I'd check my 6, have one hand on my gun and my pepper spray would be in the other. If he kept coming I'd hose him down. Keep checking my 6 and backing away and take it as it comes. If you hose someone down with pepper spray they're likely to react in some way. If his hand came out from behind his back that tells me if he's displaying a weapon. If not, keep same posture and if he is, get ready to draw.
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Business View Post
    Since when do people approach aggresively, with their hand behind their back, to ask for change? Deadguys first response is exactly what I would want to do if I could muster up a thought in that situation.

    We can create loopholes and exceptions for every one of these scenarios to try to debunk someones course of action. FACT: If one of these hypothetical situations ever becomes real, you wont resort back to what someone on a gun forum said what they think they would do.
    You make a good point. You will act in the manner that you train, which is why training for an incident is so important (i.e., when to draw, how to deescalate a situation, etc.). In my opinion, training may be what keeps you out of the slammer for what winds up being judged an unjustifiable shooting.
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  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutz275 View Post
    This is a hypothetical question. If you are being approached by a shady individual in a parking lot, you tell him to stop, and he keeps approaching you. After stressing for him to stop and he keeps coming w/ his hand behind his back. Would you shoot to kill or mame? I understand that if you fear for your life, you can shoot to kill, but I would like y'alls input on the situation.
    just on that statement---

    you shot to stop the threat.

    there is no intent to "kill or mame"

    and you stop shooting when the threat ceases.
    which is its own can of worms cause we can not read minds and how does one know when another has ceased to be a threat?
    short of the back of their head being blown off, if they are still moving and have a gun in their hand...vs if the are laying on the
    ground, holding a knife and pooling blood? or perhaps they are laying on their hand which, unseen, has a gun in it...
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  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Just a minor point here--or potentially, not quite so "minor"....... After your radar goes off, and you tell him to "Stop! Stop right there!!" the NEXT thing you should do is do a quick visual search of your "6", and make sure he doesn't have a partner sneaking up behind.
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  15. #29
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stubborn View Post
    Sounds about right to me.
    Remember he has his hand behind his back...you have no idea what he has, Knife? gun? harpoon?
    Or a Klondike bar, or a balloon, or an itchy arse, or a physical disability.

    I just love these "he could have a gun!" scenarios....

    The laws in my state doesn't allow me to gun down a "shady" character because he may have a gun or a knife. Additionally, I can't shoot him down even if he has a gun or a knife as those are not the criteria for justifiable use of deadly force in self-defense. YMMV.

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I see the thing needed here is can you prove to a jury of 12 they would have of life or bodily harm. Most state laws don't say you have to have a weapon shown just have and can prove fear to you or someone else. If that was not true in if he had a BB gun in hand you still could not shoot him because it is not a deadly weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutz275 View Post
    This is a hypothetical question. If you are being approached by a shady individual in a parking lot, you tell him to stop, and he keeps approaching you. After stressing for him to stop and he keeps coming w/ his hand behind his back. Would you shoot to kill or mame? I understand that if you fear for your life, you can shoot to kill, but I would like y'alls input on the situation.
    In OP post "approached by a shady individual" "you tell him to stop, and he keeps approaching you. After stressing for him to stop and he keeps coming w/ his hand behind his back."

    Once that person is inside our 21' rule distance what and how much damage can he do if all you have in your hand is OC. Someone who appears shady acting aggressive and not stopping inside 7yds is going to have me thinking fear of bodily harm at the least. I think it can be proved to most people to be true by a good lawyer.

    The secret here is distance bewteen you and BG. Can you move back to increase it or are you stuck with no place to go. And always be looking for the BG you don't see.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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