Dead or alive?

Dead or alive?

This is a discussion on Dead or alive? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a hypothetical question. If you are being approached by a shady individual in a parking lot, you tell him to stop, and he ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Nutz275's Avatar
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    Dead or alive?

    This is a hypothetical question. If you are being approached by a shady individual in a parking lot, you tell him to stop, and he keeps approaching you. After stressing for him to stop and he keeps coming w/ his hand behind his back. Would you shoot to kill or mame? I understand that if you fear for your life, you can shoot to kill, but I would like y'alls input on the situation.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    This sounds like a good case for pepper spray. Your gun shouldn't be your first tool, it should be your last.
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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    First off, if you are ever in a situation where you are shooting at someone there is no such thing as shooting to kill or shooting to maim, you should be shooting to end an attack, the consequences of your shooting an attacker is what it is, wounded or dead is irrelevant, stopping him is the objective.

    now for what to do in this situation is an example where a less than lethal weapon might be appropriate, using an asp or spray will usually discourage any further contact.

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    I think most people here are going to answer this in the same way.

    First, you cannot use deadly force (firing your firearm is using deadly force) unless you believe that you are in danger of serious bodily injury. I do not believe that the scenario that you presented would qualify, so IF I shot in this scenario, I would likely be in trouble, especially if he didn't have a weapon.

    Secondly, I would not intend to kill anyone, however, IF I HAD to shoot, I would shoot in the way that ALL defensive pistol trainers and police officers would say to shoot, center of mass. When you are in a high stress situation, your accuracy decreases dramatically. Therefore, shooting to maim puts innocent bystanders at MUCH greater risk than if you aim for center of mass.

    Thirdly, I don't think anyone (except for disturbed individuals) shoots to kill; they shoot to stop the attack.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Member Array STLRampage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    This sounds like a good case for pepper spray. Your gun shouldn't be your first tool, it should be your last.

    Since this is a hypothetical what happens when you pull spray and the BG is closing on you and pulls a knife/gun? At this point it would seem your choice of a less lethal option puts you at a huge disadvantage as you would then have to attempt to draw and fire with the BG close range with a ready weapon.

    Thoughts?
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  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    If the person's approach toward me is aggressive and he fails to stop after being commanded to do so, I would then place my hand on my pistol, slightly pulling it from from holster retention. Another forceful command would be issued. If at this point he still shows aggression and has refused to obey, I would be forced to clear leather and show this person I am not kidding. If he then continues to approach with a muzzle pointed at him, I have to assume he intends to harm me in some way.

    My shot(s) would be fired to stop his forward advances.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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    Member Array W9HDG's Avatar
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    ----------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-------------------------------------

    couldn't agree more. I agree the case can be made for less than lethal reaction in this case but as it was asked, what if that doesn't stop the approaching individual?

    As far as shooting to kill...NEVER! I shoot to eliminate the threat, center of mass because lord knows that what an adrenaline dump would do to my accuracy.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STLRampage View Post
    Since this is a hypothetical what happens when you pull spray and the BG is closing on you and pulls a knife/gun? At this point it would seem your choice of a less lethal option puts you at a huge disadvantage as you would then have to attempt to draw and fire with the BG close range with a ready weapon.

    Thoughts?
    That would be why you carry your 'less-than-lethal' in your off hand. So, if you need to have your pepper spray ready, it's ready in one hand, and your other hand is free to handle your weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    If the person's approach toward me is aggressive and he fails to stop after being commanded to do so, I would then place my hand on my pistol, slightly pulling it from from holster retention. Another forceful command would be issued. If at this point he still shows aggression and has refused to obey, I would be forced to clear leather and show this person I am not kidding. If he then continues to approach with a muzzle pointed at him, I have to assume he intends to harm me in some way.

    My shot(s) would be fired to stop his forward advances.
    Not a terrible thought process, but could work out very badly for you- say they're hard of hearing, or, worse yet they're unarmed. At that point, you've drawn and fired on an unarmed person- you just used lethal force on an unarmed individual whose family will undoubtedly profess that you're a nut with a gun, and all the 'wonderful, kindhearted' person you just gunned down heartlessly was mostly deaf and looking for some change for a pay phone, or parking meter. There goes your permit, your guns, and a good portion of your life in a place you don't want to be.
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    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    Not a terrible thought process, but could work out very badly for you- say they're hard of hearing, or, worse yet they're unarmed. At that point, you've drawn and fired on an unarmed person- you just used lethal force on an unarmed individual whose family will undoubtedly profess that you're a nut with a gun, and all the 'wonderful, kindhearted' person you just gunned down heartlessly was mostly deaf and looking for some change for a pay phone, or parking meter. There goes your permit, your guns, and a good portion of your life in a place you don't want to be.
    A valid argument. Since you just added another variable to the OP's scenario I will now throw in that I plan to learn the international sign for "STOP RIGHT THERE NOW!" in the event a deaf person wanting change ever approaches me in an aggressive manner. I'm being serious by the way. No sarcasm there.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  10. #10
    Member Array Nutz275's Avatar
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    Great advice everyone. I realize that my wording wasn't as politically correct as it should have been for example, shoot to kill / shoot to stop.

    This actually happened to me one time in New Orleans. It was before I had my CCP, but I have always carried in my vehicle. My vehicle was about fifty feet away and all I had was a knife. I wasn't sure what he had of course, but I didn't want to be a robbery statistic. Fortunately for me, when he got to close for my comfort, a NOPD officer came patroling from the opposite side of the parking lot. Once he seen the officer, he turned an bolted. After that occurance, I purchased a Kimber pepper spray to carry around when my family and I travel, just incase, I had a repeat of the situation. I know that pulling my weapon is last resort, but when your in a situation and your fearing the worst for you and your family, you actually have to control the fear and stay calm. If they are willing to get pepper sprayed and keep coming, they have bad intentions.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    A valid argument. Since you just added another variable to the OP's scenario I will now throw in that I plan to learn the international sign for "STOP RIGHT THERE NOW!" in the event a deaf person wanting change ever approaches me in an aggressive manner. I'm being serious by the way. No sarcasm there.
    I'm not trying to be a troublemaker- I'm just trying to make sure that people think about how the family is going to make it seem. Doesn't matter what state of health they're in- they either didn't see you/your gun, hear your warnings, or know what they were doing. It's not so much trying to introduce variables as it is trying to get people thinking, and making sure that EVERYONE knows the value- and necessity- of carrying a deterrent like pepper spray. I make sure my mother, my sister, and my wife all carry pepper spray with them. I need to get one for myself but I can't find the brand I wanted anymore, so I'm still searching.
    "Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"

    "Gun control means hitting your target every time."

    Please take everything I say with at least one grain of salt- I am a very sarcastic person with a very dry sense of humor.

  12. #12
    Member Array W9HDG's Avatar
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    My take on the above is that regardless of the reason, justified or not, the media and family of the person shot is going to make a circus out of it. Look at the shooting 2 weeks ago in Slinger, WI for an example. That's become a 3 ring circus and the DA hasn't made a decision as to whether or not to press charges. According to WI's castle doctrine it should be a cut and dry case of justified shooting based on some of the new information that is coming out.
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  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    I'm not trying to be a troublemaker- I'm just trying to make sure that people think about how the family is going to make it seem. Doesn't matter what state of health they're in- they either didn't see you/your gun, hear your warnings, or know what they were doing. It's not so much trying to introduce variables as it is trying to get people thinking, and making sure that EVERYONE knows the value- and necessity- of carrying a deterrent like pepper spray. I make sure my mother, my sister, and my wife all carry pepper spray with them. I need to get one for myself but I can't find the brand I wanted anymore, so I'm still searching.
    Not a problem my friend. We are all here to add variables and learn from each of them and each other.

    I just remembered that a stiff arm with the palm facing the other person is the sign for STOP.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  14. #14
    Member Array All_Business's Avatar
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    Since when do people approach aggresively, with their hand behind their back, to ask for change? Deadguys first response is exactly what I would want to do if I could muster up a thought in that situation.

    We can create loopholes and exceptions for every one of these scenarios to try to debunk someones course of action. FACT: If one of these hypothetical situations ever becomes real, you wont resort back to what someone on a gun forum said what they think they would do.
    "When that gun comes out of that holster; it's business time." -Chris Costa

  15. #15
    Member Array Nutz275's Avatar
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    Everyone has valid answers and I thank y'all for your opinions. True, the non lethal action is the way to go, if your not sure and to close the gap. Deadguy has a point of extending your arm w/ your palm facing them. It's a no brainer that this sign means, stop!

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