When you least expect it

When you least expect it

This is a discussion on When you least expect it within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't post much around here but do read quite a bit. Good forum with lots of good people. I had an altercation yesterday while ...

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Thread: When you least expect it

  1. #1
    Member Array OLDSCL0311's Avatar
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    When you least expect it

    I don't post much around here but do read quite a bit. Good forum with lots of good people. I had an altercation yesterday while carrying. Things happened so fast it was surreal.

    I was taking a truck load of yard waste to a recycling center. You can drop off branches, leaves etc for free. I had made several trips the last week and had one more load to drop off. It consisted of leaves with branches on top. I would pull up to the office trailer and wait for someone to come out. They would look at the load and instruct where to drop it off. I've never had a problem and always follow instructions.

    Yesterday was different. When I showed up another guy came out. I found out later he was the manager. I have a small compact pick up truck that hardly holds anything. The guy started digging through the branches and leaves over and over. I finally said there's no garbage thinking maybe they have people burying garage under the yard waste. He finally said to pull over by the branch pile then he would instruct me where to put the leaves. I complied as usual. Then he came over to my truck and told me to pull over by a leaf pile and unload. Again I complied.

    As I threw the leaves out of my truck I noticed the guy had walked over and was acting very strange. My sixth sense told me something wasn't right. I open my door to get back in my truck and the guy started digging thorough the leaves. He found two pieces of paper and said ' no garage huh ? " I said that's not garbage just stuff you find in leaves. To make a long story short he opened the passenger door and got inside. What happened next shocked me.

    He was in full rage and said HIT ME...HIT ME...HIT ME ....HIT ME....I'll drag you out of the truck and beat your a$$ as he held his fist clinches less than a foot away from my face. I thought to myself I could hit you alright with my 454 Casull but didn't draw. I could see in his eyes that no one was home. As his fist was clenched I told him he was a loose cannon and better get some help. I also told him I'm going to file a police report and his response was ' go ahead I have lots of friends who are cops ' I did file a report but one of my relatives who's retired LEO said nothing will come of it because it's my word against his.

    I think not drawing was the appropriate thing to do even thought he was in my vehicle threatening me with bodily harm. Had he started to beat my face I think all bets would have been off and he'd now be dead. Thank God I kept my cool trying to defuse the situation the best I knew how. Would it have been a good shoot ? I don't know, and I'm glad I didn't have to find out.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Here in OK you'd have been OK drawing on him. Vehicles are covered under our Castle Doctrine. Anyone who illegally and forcibly enters your residence/vehicle/RV/tent is assumed to mean you harm, and you are legally allowed to defend yourself as such. I personally probably would have drawn if he surprised me like that and exited the vehicle through my door post-haste.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I would not only call the police, but call the company management and mention that you are thinking of suing the company as you are traumatized right now. But you should have called 911 IMMEDIATELY.... not filed a police report. Then the officers could have come out and been witnesses for you to his behavior and demeanor.

    personally if he hit me, he would have been choked out so quick he would have woken up while I was giving the report to the PD in person.... but that is just me
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    You do what you gotta do, but I wouldn't let this nutjob off so easy.

    Following up with this fruitcake's management, as well as the police report is not about retaliation, it's about protecting the next person that comes along. You don't want to later read about him doing something really bad to another customer.
    mano3, jem102, Bark'n and 4 others like this.
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Sir, I suggest YOU familiarize yourself with YOUR states laws regarding the use of deadly force...Read it over and over and over until you have it ingrained in your memory. Does your state have a castle doctrine to include your vehicle? Does your state have a duty to retreat clause or a stand your ground clause in the laws? Are you familiar with Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy requirements, or some places may call it Intent, Ability, Opportunity requirements? Was deadly force justified? Normally, deadly force can only be used in the immediate or otherwise unavoidable threat of death or great bodily injury to an innocent person.

    In situations of the use of deadly force, there are basically two problems: Problem One - Saving your life and Problem Two - Everything else. If you are in the right "It doesn't matter what you did." If you are in the wrong "it doesn't matter what you did."

    Know your laws to the best of your ability and train to meet the requirements of defending YOUR life and the lives of your loved ones. JMO
    tactilame likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    My sixth sense told me something wasn't right.

    We ignore that little voice to our own peril. Most of us are just normal, plain, everyday folks. We expect others to respond and interact in a set of social acceptble and expected norms. Most of us, (myself included) when that little voice ("Spidey sense") says that "something's not right here" want to play down that voice, because we want to believe better about the other person, we don't want to believe that something bad is about to happen to US and we don't want to be guilty of "over-reacting."
    jklowe48 and WHEC724 like this.
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    Member Array OLDSCL0311's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    Thank you for your responses. I live in Ohio. We are protected under the castle doctrine which includes vehicles. There is always more to a story. I can tell you I was not the aggressor. The guy was obviously having a bad day when I came along. Yes he entered my vehicle and postured with his fist antagonizing me into a fight.There was ability, opportunity and jeopardy but I didn't play his game. I didn't show anger. I spoke calmly telling him I will be filing a police report. The guy obviously has some serious problems. I told him that. I advised him to get some help. Had he jumped in my truck and started going off things would have been different. As unusual as this incident was I always felt I was in control.

    I'm 61 years old. Seen too much violence in Vietnam to last a lifetime. No joy in killing even if you have to. At the end of the day we both went home to our families and no one got hurt. I may follow up with a prosecutor but it's my word against his. I won't be going back to that facility again, so no chance of another confrontation. Could I have presented my weapon and legally shot ? Yes I believe I could have had things not gone the way I hoped.

    semper fi...
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    I live in Ohio, as well, and from where I sit, you handled it perfectly.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  9. #9
    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    I imagine the reason he holds such a position is that he's unemployable anywhere else. I think nowadays it might be a good idea to keep a voice activated recorder in your shirt pocket for occasions such as this. I am also under the impression in most states if you feel threatened with imminent serious bodily harm you may strike your attacker first in defense. Being armed you did the right thing in avoidance, but unarmed I'd probably one up his use of force and eject him from my vehicle. I gotta ask why are you carrying a 454 Casull? You in Grizzly territory?Good job on your restraint, but had he hit you, imho shooting him would be a very wrong choice.The only way I'd go to a firearm is if were obvious he was so skilled or physically capable of killing me or multiple attackers were involved. AND you were pursued and left no choice. Given your explanation I say heck no to using a firearm sorry...
    RIP Jeff Cooper

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDSCL0311 View Post
    Gentlemen,

    Thank you for your responses. I live in Ohio. We are protected under the castle doctrine which includes vehicles. There is always more to a story. I can tell you I was not the aggressor. The guy was obviously having a bad day when I came along. Yes he entered my vehicle and postured with his fist antagonizing me into a fight.There was ability, opportunity and jeopardy but I didn't play his game. I didn't show anger. I spoke calmly telling him I will be filing a police report. The guy obviously has some serious problems. I told him that. I advised him to get some help. Had he jumped in my truck and started going off things would have been different. As unusual as this incident was I always felt I was in control.

    I'm 61 years old. Seen too much violence in Vietnam to last a lifetime. No joy in killing even if you have to. At the end of the day we both went home to our families and no one got hurt. I may follow up with a prosecutor but it's my word against his. I won't be going back to that facility again, so no chance of another confrontation. Could I have presented my weapon and legally shot ? Yes I believe I could have had things not gone the way I hoped.

    semper fi...
    Just go back with a witness... always have a reliable witness. Shooting is the last thing on my mind. I would have choked him out

  11. #11
    Member Array OLDSCL0311's Avatar
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    Lots of good comments. Glad I posted. I used to carry a P7 but now my 454 is the only handgun I own. I'm not a cowboy but I'm very comfortable and proficient with it. It's a single action. Never thought about choking someone out but will keep that in mind. For sure that would seem preferable if you can pull it off. My concern is that your hands are tied up while his are free. What if he had a weapon. He could end your life before he passes out. Had the guy hit me shooting him or making a presentation would have been the wrong choice. I would have filed an assault charge and he's going to jail....not me. I would have had to been stomped real bad or if he had a knife or other weapon before I would have drawn.

    We live in a crazy society. Lots of people under lots of stress. I'm more concerned with gang bangers and burglars. Things would have had to have gone terribly wrong for me to have drawn on this guy. He got my attention being in my vehicle. That told me he was unstable. I stayed calm and defused the situation however if he went ballistic I would have had no problem ending the threat. The guy's 49 years old. I googled him. Not much more I could find.

    1911...I agree with you but you can't tell how skilled someone is at ending your life. Also consider over the top crazy may be more dangerous than skilled. Believe me....the LAST thing I want to do is shoot someone. I'm willing to do all options but if I run out of options I wouldn't hesitate to end the threat.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Like others said carry a voice recorder,he can deny all he wants but his voice on a recorder threatening you would be the end of his job,not only that but he may have threatened other people and co-workers may know about his issues,but don't want to get fired for telling on him.I would follow up,a lot of times if he is that unstable when he gets confronted he may go ballistic in front of the wrong people
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Like others said carry a voice recorder,he can deny all he wants but his voice on a recorder threatening you would be the end of his job,not only that but he may have threatened other people and co-workers may know about his issues,but don't want to get fired for telling on him.I would follow up,a lot of times if he is that unstable when he gets confronted he may go ballistic in front of the wrong people
    Might want to check your State laws before attempting this. Don't some States have laws against recording others voice?

    Michael

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    As you put it there is always more to the story, it is hard to convey everything in a post and every encounter is different. The good thing is as you said everyone went home, and you posted and we have the benifit of thinking through these things. Your brain is your best weapon, sounds like you used it.

    Semper Fi Mac

  15. #15
    Member Array ponchsox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDSCL0311 View Post
    I don't post much around here but do read quite a bit. Good forum with lots of good people. I had an altercation yesterday while carrying. Things happened so fast it was surreal.

    I was taking a truck load of yard waste to a recycling center. You can drop off branches, leaves etc for free. I had made several trips the last week and had one more load to drop off. It consisted of leaves with branches on top. I would pull up to the office trailer and wait for someone to come out. They would look at the load and instruct where to drop it off. I've never had a problem and always follow instructions.

    Yesterday was different. When I showed up another guy came out. I found out later he was the manager. I have a small compact pick up truck that hardly holds anything. The guy started digging through the branches and leaves over and over. I finally said there's no garbage thinking maybe they have people burying garage under the yard waste. He finally said to pull over by the branch pile then he would instruct me where to put the leaves. I complied as usual. Then he came over to my truck and told me to pull over by a leaf pile and unload. Again I complied.

    As I threw the leaves out of my truck I noticed the guy had walked over and was acting very strange. My sixth sense told me something wasn't right. I open my door to get back in my truck and the guy started digging thorough the leaves. He found two pieces of paper and said ' no garage huh ? " I said that's not garbage just stuff you find in leaves. To make a long story short he opened the passenger door and got inside. What happened next shocked me.

    He was in full rage and said HIT ME...HIT ME...HIT ME ....HIT ME....I'll drag you out of the truck and beat your a$$ as he held his fist clinches less than a foot away from my face. I thought to myself I could hit you alright with my 454 Casull but didn't draw. I could see in his eyes that no one was home. As his fist was clenched I told him he was a loose cannon and better get some help. I also told him I'm going to file a police report and his response was ' go ahead I have lots of friends who are cops ' I did file a report but one of my relatives who's retired LEO said nothing will come of it because it's my word against his.

    I think not drawing was the appropriate thing to do even thought he was in my vehicle threatening me with bodily harm. Had he started to beat my face I think all bets would have been off and he'd now be dead. Thank God I kept my cool trying to defuse the situation the best I knew how. Would it have been a good shoot ? I don't know, and I'm glad I didn't have to find out.
    Glad it didn't turn into something worse and you used your head. Had he began an assault, you can easily remove yourself from this situation by stepping out of the vehicle and calling the police. You also can defend yourself with your own fists. Had he grabbed a 2x4 or something of that nature, then all bets are off. Remember, you can't undo what you already did. Using deadly force is a life changing experience followed by years of legal battles.

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