Engaging multiple targets

This is a discussion on Engaging multiple targets within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since many crimes are commited by more than one suspect how have you trained or worked out in your mind multiple engagements? For the sake ...

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    Engaging multiple targets

    Since many crimes are commited by more than one suspect how have you trained or worked out in your mind multiple engagements? For the sake of argument lets say there are three BG's.

    Are you going to work on the theory "Everybody gets some then start over" or do you engage each one with two or more rounds individually til they go down?

    Some things to consider. Which is the greatest threat? The guy with the shotgun at 5 yards or the guy with the knife at 5 feet?
    Is distance a major concern in whom you engage first, type of weapon and so on? How are you going to transition from one to the other?

    I have trained in the theory everyone gets something first then go back and see who still wants to be there. Not saying it is right or wrong that is just me. I do consider weapon type and distance in which suspect would be engaged first. I would of course attempt to put distance or movement to my advantage if possible even to the point of putting one shooter in front of the other to disrupt their potential shot.

    If you have trained for this what did you do to prepare? If you have not trained for this what is your plan?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    For an unexpected encounter on the street (robbery) with 2 or more BG's I would more than likely shoot at the one I could engage the quickest with 2 shots then proceed from there to the next quickest target to engage. This would be for a "normal" robbery with the BG's all within 3 yards of each other and armed with hangguns or knives.
    Reasoning: At this distance my first shot might be point shooting and I want to get as much lead in the guy as possible. Notice I did not say the closest BG I would engage first. At these distances I would consider them all equal as far as a threat and do not want to take the time to asses who is carrying what. Taking the time to sort them out would not make much of a difference so engaging any of them quickly would be first in my mind.

    And of course llike the OP stated, create distance and movement while drawing your weapon.

    Oh, the other reason for two shot is because I always train for two shots. It would be instinctive even if the first shot took off the guys forehead. I can see either way though, single or double.
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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Reactive targets are your friend, while moving. Take them out in the order your range commander gives. He will change it up on you.
    Last edited by Harryball; March 21st, 2012 at 04:24 PM.
    marcclarke and Stubborn like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    immediate movement. Create separation. Shoot at each to throw them out of the OODA loop.... keep moving..... reassess..... shoot again....look for cover

    The two most important things are movement and throwing the attackers out of their ooda loop. Be the aggressor. make them react.

    That is my strategy anyway.... murphys law always has a way of throwing a wrench in any strategy but movement, separation, disruption of the ooda loop, and cover are my priorities. That and being extremely aggressive. I will be the hunter and turn them into the prey.
    Crowbait, Kadelic and WHEC724 like this.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    proximinity brings my attention followed as needed with a bullet likely fired from inside my coat pocket.

    if you are going to suprise me, get in past my SA and forsce an issue, than my answer will be forced also.
    while that gun is speaking, i'll be aquiring my primary and either use it or, them having limping and leaving,
    make to put out the fire in my pocket.

    if you do not carry a side pocket gun and are not trained with point shooting...your actions will be different.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    Pretty much what you say, highest threat first, proximity, weapon, and activity. then go back and see who wants a second serving if they still present a threat.
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    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    When do I fling out my fake wallet?

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    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
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    From Self Defense Findings: The following comes to us courtesy of Claude Werner, Director of Firearms Training LLC. It is an analysis of five years of incidents reported in the NRA "Armed Citizen" column.

    "Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there are no apparent cases of drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. Immediate flight is the most common response for drivers and lookouts at the sound of gunfire."

    I'm hoping that after I take out the first BG that the others will flee...
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    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Since many crimes are commited by more than one suspect how have you trained or worked out in your mind multiple engagements? For the sake of argument lets say there are three BG's.

    Are you going to work on the theory "Everybody gets some then start over" or do you engage each one with two or more rounds individually til they go down?

    Some things to consider. Which is the greatest threat? The guy with the shotgun at 5 yards or the guy with the knife at 5 feet?
    Is distance a major concern in whom you engage first, type of weapon and so on? How are you going to transition from one to the other?

    I have trained in the theory everyone gets something first then go back and see who still wants to be there. Not saying it is right or wrong that is just me. I do consider weapon type and distance in which suspect would be engaged first. I would of course attempt to put distance or movement to my advantage if possible even to the point of putting one shooter in front of the other to disrupt their potential shot.

    If you have trained for this what did you do to prepare? If you have not trained for this what is your plan?
    Respond with agressiveness and VIOLENCE. Move off the X. I think if they are grouped, as in a street encounter, then I might move off the X, and step forward at a 45 degree angle while discharging into the group. If they are spread out with a couple yards between, move off the X, toward the nearest BG at a 45 degree angle, take two shots to COM, change direction toward next nearest at 45 degree angle and repeat, and repeat change toward 3rd BG.

    If BG's, are at a distance, move off the X, seek cover and/or concealment, while shooting double taps beginning with the nearest and working back.

    If BG with knife is within 5 feet and BG with shotgun is within 5 yards, move off the X at an angle that puts the knife weilding BG between myself and the shotgun, while drawing and firing on the knife man first. I don't think the shotgun man will fire until his bud is out of the way. Then contingue to engage until they have either retreated, or I've put them down. Obviously if cover or concealment is available between taking the first BG out, then knowing there is a shotgun behind, I'd be seeking that if available after taking the first BG out.

    In all scenarios, stop the threat! OR Force the threat to retreat. Do not forget to protect your six in those instances that only two BG's are in front of you. You movement will be dictated differently in that scenario...Kinda gives a bit of credence to the question of "do you carry extra mags and why"? Top off when the three BG's are down and call 911...Ask for a change of pants to be brought to you! JMO

    OHHHHH...Since Mad Mac checked in on this one....Mad Mac, just exactly how would YOU respond after you threw your fake wallet?
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    T-man, is the thread about training or a scenario? I see some are posting as if it were a scenario. As I understood it, you were asking about training.

    @Madmac, Have fun with the wallet.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Either or HB. Some have never trained for it so the scenario may get them thinking about the posts of those who have trained or thought about it.

    When do I fling out my fake wallet?

    MadMac now you know CC protocol and statistics state that this is only done after showing your CCW Badge and placing your CCW sash across your chest. If the BG's are still there only then do you throw your fake wallet.

    I agree completely violence of action is your only recourse here should you make the decision to engage. Aggressive movement at an angle could/would put the attackers both off guard and in their own line of fire giving you that much needed time or distance to eliminate the threat. Again I dont think either method of one each or put one down then go to the next is wrong I do think that it will be determined by individual circumstance and training.

    In another recent post the question was debated about firing while moving forward or backwards. This may be one of those cases where violent sustained fire while moving forward could work to your advantage, again to be determined by the individual situation and level of training.
    WHEC724 likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Either or HB. Some have never trained for it so the scenario may get them thinking about the posts of those who have trained or thought about it.

    When do I fling out my fake wallet?

    MadMac now you know CC protocol and statistics state that this is only done after showing your CCW Badge and placing your CCW sash across your chest. If the BG's are still there only then do you throw your fake wallet.

    I agree completely violence of action is your only recourse here should you make the decision to engage. Aggressive movement at an angle could/would put the attackers both off guard and in their own line of fire giving you that much needed time or distance to eliminate the threat. Again I dont think either method of one each or put one down then go to the next is wrong I do think that it will be determined by individual circumstance and training.

    In another recent post the question was debated about firing while moving forward or backwards. This may be one of those cases where violent sustained fire while moving forward could work to your advantage, again to be determined by the individual situation and level of training.
    Ok thanks. We train to take action, and not be re-active. In movement it cause the BGs to become re-active thus slowing them down and giving us (the GGs) a chance to win the fight. The course of fire also verys so we do not get stuck in the double tap only mode....

    The bold part I agree 100% with you on...
    WHEC724 likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    immediate movement. Create separation. Shoot at each to throw them out of the OODA loop.... keep moving..... reassess..... shoot again....look for cover

    The two most important things are movement and throwing the attackers out of their ooda loop. Be the aggressor. make them react.

    That is my strategy anyway.... murphys law always has a way of throwing a wrench in any strategy but movement, separation, disruption of the ooda loop, and cover are my priorities. That and being extremely aggressive. I will be the hunter and turn them into the prey.


    ^^^^^^^^^I'm in this camp^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Try and get everyone of them thinking they have a more pressing appointment elsewhere.





    You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for.
    Move in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.
    Mathew Courtney
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    When do I fling out my fake wallet?



    If you are a gracious victim, you'd naturally throw it out there before they even ask for it.

    MadMac, I'm suprised you had to ask .
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

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    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    The multiple BG scenario is very hard to devise a strategy for without a large amount of detail as to what exactly you face.
    Distances, weapons, cover availability, specific actions of each BG.

    In general I'm thinking the guy within 5 feet of me gets a double tap first. I need him out of the fight immediately or he could disrupt
    me from engaging anyone else. After that it depends on some of the above mentioned details.

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