Move and shoot or just shoot

Move and shoot or just shoot

This is a discussion on Move and shoot or just shoot within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In reading some of the scenario threads I noticed many replies involve moving to cover or at least moving diagonally away from a threat as ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    Move and shoot or just shoot

    In reading some of the scenario threads I noticed many replies involve moving to cover or at least moving diagonally away from
    a threat as you are engaging that threat. This got me to thinking about my abilities and what would be the best way for me
    to respond.

    In a perfect world I would be able to step outside of my mansion to my private IDPA range stocked with all the things
    I would need to practice every conceivable scenario. And shoot at least a couple thousand rounds a month. Unfortunately I don't
    live in a perfect world. I am confident in my ability to draw and get accurate hits very fast out to 20 feet. I am not so confident
    I could get the accurate hits if I am making movements more than one step from where I start.

    Is it possible that for someone like me it would be better to just draw and shoot as quick and accurate as I can versus trying
    to move and shoot at the same time? I know that specific situations will change the answer like if there is cover 3 feet away
    I am going for that. Just wondering what others think about this.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    you sound like someone who has 'played' a bit and has reached a level where you now need help to bring it together.
    thus a 1-1 class for an afternoon with someone who can sharpen what you do right, point out ways other than how you presently do something which may get integreated into your overall

    to be shown where you are wasting time and how to work in others waus.
    martial arts helps for learning to walk side/back, as needed smoothly witout tying yourself up.
    for this i can show you, but a class will instill muscle memory.

    and as any event will occure with variences, you act/react is a growing, changing combination of motions.

    and all this happens fast....from "hay--buddy gotta match" to his knife and your gun and....under 2 seconds.

    the statement many have said about falling back onto training is greatly true.
    think how many things will occure in that 2 seconds and with no training you would need a lok of luck to come out on top, uninjured.

    ---your question; given some training---you will have a 'feel' for how to position yourself having 'read' the situation and the work area.
    without training you would be more likely to stand in place. or run away. don't laugh--if it gets you away from the problem uninjured--it works.

    ------------------
    to practice moving and shooting
    learn to aim with your eyes. search that rather than me retype it pease.

    it learns fast and is not difficult to be hitting 6" paperplates on IDPA target boards after a couple of range trips.
    Bark'n, sgb and MotorCityGun like this.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Your goal is to not get shot. Figure out the best way to do that.
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    Shooting and moving do take practice but the need and importance to Get off the X cannot be stressed enough, especially when rounds are coming in.

    You can work on your skills one step at a time as an example. See the threat, draw, move, shoot or a variation thereof. See the threat, move, draw shoot but the main thing until you get skilled and comfortable doing it shoot from a stable fixed position. Once you have increased your skill level then work on shooting and moving slowly at first then gaining speed.

    In any SD situation distance is your friend even if you move laterally a couple of feet it forces the attacker to again go through his OODA loop and rethink his plan of attack. If you can get more training or get a quality set of DVD's to get the idea of what is supposed to be done and then practice it.
    Last edited by tacman605; March 22nd, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  5. #5
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    Which way would it be easier for 'incoming' to find you...while you're standing still or moving?
    Getting into a one to two-day SD pistol class may assist your thinking.
    You can draw and move with a training pistol, or your firearm unloaded to develop muscle memory.
    IF something were to happen, you won't be thinking much...you'll do what you have trained your brain to do.
    The Old Anglo likes this.
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    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    #1 Rule of a gunfight... GET OFF THE "X" !!!

    Well, that's #2 I guess, #1 would be bring a gun!
    "Death is lighter than a feather, but Duty is heavier than a mountain" Robert Jordan
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  7. #7
    JD
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    STAND, MOVE, OR SEEK COVER…WHAT WORKS IN A GUNFIGHT?

    By: Greg Elefritz



    As the full-time training officer and firearms instructor for my police department, I often have the opportunity to attend firearms training sessions from some of the best trainers in the world. I have noticed that most of these trainers teach students to shoot their firearms while moving, with the premise being that a student is less likely to be struck by incoming fire if he/she is a moving target. In addition to “shooting on the move”, almost all trainers advocate moving to cover in a gunfight, if said cover is nearby. These two techniques make seem to be very logical. Most people would agree that making yourself a moving target and seeking bullet-resistant cover could only help one’s chances of winning a gunfight. Having an inquisitive mind, however, I’ve always wondered exactly how much of an advantage one could expect to gain over his opponent through the use of movement and cover.



    To answer this question, I began an exhaustive search of hundreds of firearm tactics books and countless accounts of police-involved shootings looking for examples where utilizing movement or cover saved a person’s life during a gunfight. During my search I found many instances where officers and civilians reported that they used cover and/or movement to help them win a firefight. I also found quite a few articles and books extolling the perceived benefits of cover and movement. I did not, however, find any concrete scientific evidence describing any quantifiable advantages of using movement or cover in a gunfight. The question remained: Which is the best tactic to use in a gunfight…remain stationary, move, or seek cover?


    Because I couldn’t find the type of information I wanted, I designed a scientific experiment to get my own data. Besides training law enforcement officers, I also teach firearms skills at the Tactical Defense Institute (TDI), a shooting school in southern Ohio. John Benner, the owner and chief instructor at TDI was very supportive of the idea of my experiment and was curious what the data might show. He suggested that the ideal test subjects would be in his soon-to-be–held “final intensive scenario training” (FIST) class. The students enrolled in this class were highly trained, all having graduated at least six levels (ten days) of TDI’s handgun curriculum. Most had additional training from other shooting schools as well. John graciously allowed me to perform my experiment during a segment of the two-day FIST course.


    THE EXPERIMENT

    The test I conducted was loosely based on some training drills created by Sam Faulkner, an innovative trainer recently retired from the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy. The experiment had three phases. During each phase, one student faced another with a distance of fifteen feet separating them. Each student was outfitted with safety gear and armed with a .38 caliber revolver loaded with two “Code Eagle” brand marking cartridges. For those of you unfamiliar with this technology, the marking cartridge is a .38 paintball powered by a special primed plastic case. It chambers in any .38 revolver without modification and shoots the paint ball at approximately 300 feet per second. The rounds produce a sharp stinging sensation and a bright smear of red paint on the bodies of the people who are hit. Obviously it is necessary to wear protective face shields when using these rounds in order to prevent eye injuries. In prior training exercises I’ve found the Code Eagle rounds to be very valuable in gunfight simulations. They are reasonably accurate, and produce quite a “pain penalty” to the person who is struck. Anticipation of even the small amount of pain these projectiles generate causes considerable anxiety for most people. This anxiety at least partially duplicates the stress reaction one is likely to experience in a gunfight.

    In the first phase of the experiment, shooters were given orders to fire their two rounds at each other as quickly as possible after a surprise start signal was given. I instructed the students to remain stationary during the simulated gunfight. Absolutely no movement of the feet was allowed. Phase two was identical to the first phase, except that students were allowed free movement (forward, backward, or lateral) after I gave the surprise start signal. In phase three, students started a step away from one of two fifty-five gallon steel drums. These drums were to simulate cover. On the start command, students were instructed to move to their steel drum and use it for cover while engaging their respective adversaries.


    THE RESULTS

    A total of nineteen students participated in the experiment. One hundred fourteen rounds were fired, with thirty-eight rounds fired per phase. I tracked and compared hit percentages during all three phases, differentiating between hits on the torso and the more peripheral hits on the arms and legs. The data are as follows:

    PHASE HIT RATE TORSO HITS
    #1-STANDING 85% 51%
    #2- MOVING 47% 11%
    #3- USING COVER 26% 6%

    LESSONS LEARNED


    The students who participated in my study were as surprised by the results as I was. We all expected that movement and the use of cover would reduce the hit rates of the rounds fired. We were astonished, however, at how much difference moving and seeking cover made. The difference in hit rates between standing and moving cannot be explained away by a lack of skills by the shooters. Each shooter had extensively practiced shooting on the move, with most being able to hit a twelve-inch steel plate on demand any distance inside of fifty feet while moving. Similarly, these students are adept at hitting a moving target while standing still. The critical factor seemed to be the difficulty the shooter experienced in hitting a moving target while moving his own body at the same time. This clearly identifies a need for additional training and highlights the critical importance of making yourself a moving target during a gunfight. If highly trained shooters hit their opponents’ torsos with only eleven percent of rounds fired, imagine how much worse the average street thug with no training and minimal experience will perform under similar conditions!


    It is also clear that when students used cover they fared even better than they did while moving. The hit rates would be far less than reported if several students didn’t break cover and retreat after running out of ammunition during the drill. Most of the hits occurred when this happened. Proper use of cover almost eliminated the chance of being hit.


    One other critical statistic needs to be noted. Thirteen percent of the hits across all phases of the experiment struck the hands or guns of the person at which they were fired. This indicates a strong focus on the threat being directed against the shooter and a lack of attention to the front sight, creating some implications for future training. These shooters are strongly indoctrinated in the use of their weapon sights for most shooting situations. Even when shooting fast, they generally utilize a “flash” sight picture when shooting on targets. Even with extensive practice, very few students reported seeing their sights in this experiment. Not wanting to bring up the dreaded “point shooting versus sighted fire” debate in this forum, I’ll simply say that we as trainers need to do some more work. We need to find a better solution to allow our students to hit their targets with a greater percentage of rounds during the stressful, fast-evolving nature of a gunfight. Whatever that solution is, be it training in point shooting techniques, an enhanced sighted shooting curriculum, or stress-inoculating scenario-based training, it is our collective responsibility as trainers to find it.


    It was interesting to note that some of the shooters in the above experiment shot with only one hand despite doing the majority of their training from a two-handed platform. When asked why they had done this, most were unaware that they had fired one-handed. Their bodies seemed to be on autopilot, self-selecting what was perceived to be the fastest way to get their guns on target. This fact, combined with the prevalence of hits on the hands or guns of the shooters indicates that we should focus much more of our time training one-hand shooting, hand transitions, and support-hand shooting techniques. We should also emphasize the importance of carrying secondary weapons in case our primary gun becomes inoperative after taking a bullet.


    Overall, this experiment generates more questions than it does answers. I set two very critical limits in this experiment…a fifteen-foot separation distance and the firing of two rounds per shooter. I chose the distance because a large percentage of law enforcement officers are killed while facing gunmen at this range or even closer. For this study, it seemed an appropriate balance between a range that was so close that hits were virtually guaranteed and one that was too far for the Code Eagle projectiles to be effective. It is likely that the results would be somewhat different if the ranges were altered. Similarly, firing more or fewer rounds will probably change the results. Who knows what to expect when variables such as multiple attackers are injected into the equation. The true value of this experiment may not be the data obtained, but the experience given to the students. They received a chance to see for themselves what techniques worked and which were not as successful. I do not expect anyone to alter their tactical doctrines or teaching styles as a result of this article. I only encourage all trainers to examine the tactics they present to their students and be willing to put them to the test in a somewhat more chaotic environment than the traditional “square range”. It is only this type of thorough examination that will promote a greater understanding of tactical issues and, in the process, save our students’ lives.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Great article JD...Thanks for posting...I think the last paragraph summed up my thoughts after reading the article...Number of rounds, distance, is your target frozen while you move, moving while you move, multiple numbers of BG's, your tactics, all will play a critical factor in your survival. One thing that I believe the article/experiment did prove, and that is the importance of carrying reloads (speed strips or additional mags) at a minimum, and a BUG at a maximum. People question WHY carry, multiple mags...all they have to do is look at the percentages of hits in the article and it should be a no brainer!

    Bottom line...TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN...JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    You and a buddy get a couple of airsoft pistols and masks. Run some drills that are likely to happen on the street. In a couple of drills you'll figure it out. It's a different world when rounds are coming back.

  10. #10
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    JD: Great post.

    Ducmonster: I recently took a Combat Focus Shooting class from Rob Pincus. During one segment he demonstrated and also logically explained (with relevant charts, angles, math, etc.) why it's best to make a quick lateral movement then plant and fire while standing in place. The logical proof and practical demo were convincing.

    Basically what it comes down to is that: (1) When you make a lateral movement it makes it much harder for your opponent to hit you with his/her first shot(s) and gives you a small amount of extra time to set yourself up while your opponent re-orients on your new position. And (2) you are much more accurate when shooting from a planted state than you are when moving, so you can rapidly get multiple hits on target (after you draw and extend in the extra second that the movement gave you) by simply pressing the trigger multiple time.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    For those of you who remember, I posted, and was somewhat heckled by some who subscribe to the new method, about a method that was developed years ago at Quantico, after the Miami shootout, that promoted survivability to agents in close distance gun fights.

    The technique required a melting down of your body beginning from the draw phase, and ended up with you in a tight kneeling position as you returned fire. This technique not only minimized your body to the threat making you harder to hit, but, it placed large bone structure over vital upper organ areas that gave some natural obstruction if you did take a hit.

    I cannot remember what they called it, but I remember it distinctly thinking it may be added to the curriculum I was teaching at the time. It so impressed me that I adopted it and have kept it ready ever since.

    This experiment that JD so kindly posted, does not suprise me at all. When techniques are adopted, they are so with being easily taught and mastered by a large number of people. My " melting method" requires some physical dexterity and religion to become ingrained enough to be used with fluidity.

    Now that the weather is nice, I will do a video and share it with you guys.

    Getting off the x is good stratedgy, but it's not always feasible, or even the best course of action.
    tacman605 and First Sgt like this.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    For those of you who remember, I posted, and was somewhat heckled by some who subscribe to the new method, about a method that was developed years ago at Quantico, after the Miami shootout, that promoted survivability to agents in close distance gun fights.

    The technique required a melting down of your body beginning from the draw phase, and ended up with you in a tight kneeling position as you returned fire. This technique not only minimized your body to the threat making you harder to hit, but, it placed large bone structure over vital upper organ areas that gave some natural obstruction if you did take a hit.

    I cannot remember what they called it, but I remember it distinctly thinking it may be added to the curriculum I was teaching at the time. It so impressed me that I adopted it and have kept it ready ever since.

    This experiment that JD so kindly posted, does not suprise me at all. When techniques are adopted, they are so with being easily taught and mastered by a large number of people. My " melting method" requires some physical dexterity and religion to become ingrained enough to be used with fluidity.

    Now that the weather is nice, I will do a video and share it with you guys.

    Getting off the x is good stratedgy, but it's not always feasible, or even the best course of action.
    You and I talked about that a lot. Im still waiting for that video....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Like you said it really depends on the situation and your surroundings. It is normally best to get behind cover if you can do so quickly. If you are outside, a tree makes for good cover. Despite what you see in the movies where they stand right next to the cover it is best to stand about 5 feet behind it. You are able to see them a lot faster. Also make sure if your head goes out of cover so does your firearm. If you go out of cover and aim/shoot and go back into cover make sure the next time you go out you do it in a different position; if you were standing, crouch or even lay down that way you are much less predictable and that half second you save could be all it takes to save your life. I know this doesn't answer your question but it is something to keep in mind should a situation ever happen where it is applicable. I learned this from a County deputy/Law enforcement teacher.

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    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    JD, great article! Thanks for posting it. I live in southern Ohio and am saving my money to be able to take some classes at TDI one day. Since I am retired and on a fixed income, it is taking me awhile, but I'll get there eventually. In the mean time, I'm learning a lot reading posts here at DC.
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    Good article JD.

    Glockman I to learned and later taught a similiar technique where you went to a compacted kneeling postion and it was also taught to go lower by going back into a supine position and firing.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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