Weapon, or no weapon....

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Weapon, or no weapon....

    From another thread, there is a discussion about whether do deploy your weapon or not. I am of the belief that your gun is the last tool in your tool bag you should use. Here is a scenario, that happened to me in a local QD....Link to other thread for reference...Noticing a new trend

    I needed a cup of coffee and my little guy wanted a beef jerky. So we went into the convenience store. There is a DVD rental kiosk in the store, so we went back to the soda isle, I thought I would get a two liter of Diet dew while we were there. Upon entering the store, I noticed an individual that looked strange, even by my standard...

    So we are at the soda isle. The strange looking guy was walking around the store looking around, trying to find something. What he was looking for I have no idea. So I look in the cooler, find my Diet Dew, open the door and the stranger has his hand on Tre's back pushing him toward the front door of the store. This is when I acted. I put my shoulder to the middle of his back, grabbed tre' and told said stranger to back up. He looked at me with distaste. I then pushed him back and yelled, leave my boy alone. At this point all attention was on him. He ran out of the store. Store called the PD.

    Now, my question to all of you is this. Did I need to pull my weapon out and draw this guy down, or did my H2H work to solve this situation? I did what I felt was right for the level of the threat. What say you.....
    Last edited by limatunes; March 25th, 2012 at 01:06 PM. Reason: language
    Dadsnugun likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    Sounds like you handled this very well. At the point that you reacted there was no indication this was life threatening.

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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Wow Harry, that sounds like a scary situation. I think you were a LOT more calm than I would've been if I thought someone was trying to abduct my son. (I hope your son is ok and wasn't traumatized.)

    Since you made no mention of a weapon, nor did you insinuate any disparity of force. I think you handled it well. (At least better than I would have.)

    I don't think I would have pulled my weapon. But, I'm not so sure the BG would have walked out the door either. I hope you gave the PD a good description and they can catch these guys!

    -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    From another thread, there is a discussion about whether do deploy your weapon or not. I am of the belief that your gun is the last tool in your tool bag you should use. Here is a scenario, that happened to me in a local QD....Link to other thread for reference...Noticing a new trend

    I needed a cup of coffee and my little guy wanted a beef jerky. So we went into the convenience store. There is a DVD rental kiosk in the store, so we went back to the soda isle, I thought I would get a two liter of Diet dew while we were there. Upon entering the store, I noticed an individual that looked strange, even by my standard...

    So we are at the soda isle. The strange looking guy was walking around the store looking around, trying to find something. What he was looking for I have no idea. So I look in the cooler, find my Diet Dew, open the door and the stranger has his hand on Tre's back pushing him toward the front door of the store. This is when I acted. I put my shoulder to the middle of his back, grabbed tre' and told said stranger to back up. He looked at me with distaste. I then pushed him back and yelled, leave my boy alone. At this point all attention was on him. He ran out of the store. Store called the PD.

    Now, my question to all of you is this. Did I need to pull my weapon out and draw this guy down, or did my H2H work to solve this situation? I did what I felt was right for the level of the threat. What say you.....
    I hope they caught the guy. This is one I would be very conflicted on, given the presence and involvement of the guy whose well-being is the most important thing in your life.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Wow Harry, that sounds like a scary situation. I think you were a LOT more calm than I would've been if I thought someone was trying to abduct my son. (I hope your son is ok and wasn't traumatized.)

    Since you made no mention of a weapon, nor did you insinuate any disparity of force. I think you handled it well. (At least better than I would have.)

    I don't think I would have pulled my weapon. But, I'm not so sure the BG would have walked out the door either. I hope you gave the PD a good description and they can catch these guys!

    -
    I appreciate it...Little man is ok, he is 8 and didnt realize what was going on. I was armed at the time. In the split second that I decided to act, my game plan was in tact. I just want people to realize that your gun should not be the first and only choice when it comes to an SD situation. Thanks again for the concern....and yes the PD was informed....Im not sure if they found the guy or not. I havent heard anything as of yet....
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I appreciate it...Little man is ok, he is 8 and didnt realize what was going on. I was armed at the time. In the split second that I decided to act, my game plan was in tact. I just want people to realize that your gun should not be the first and only choice when it comes to an SD situation. Thanks again for the concern....and yes the PD was informed....Im not sure if they found the guy or not. I havent heard anything as of yet....
    Good outcome. Questions.
    How big was the guy?
    How big are you?
    Could you reasonably "take" him in fight?
    Could he have harmed your son?
    If you went to the use of OC spray would it have worked or would your son and or yourself been affected?
    OR
    After your shove if you had put your weapon on his nose would you have been ready?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I appreciate it...Little man is ok, he is 8 and didnt realize what was going on. I was armed at the time. In the split second that I decided to act, my game plan was in tact. I just want people to realize that your gun should not be the first and only choice when it comes to an SD situation. Thanks again for the concern....and yes the PD was informed....Im not sure if they found the guy or not. I havent heard anything as of yet....
    With some focus on the part in bold--- An 8 year old knows when he is being kidnapped. Since he was not instantly distressed
    you probably used exactly the right amount of force. I can think of innocent explanations though I don't think
    that innocent is what you were dealing with.

    The big downside is the POS got away. The big upside is you didn't use your firearm and avoided a big fuss with hours
    at the police station even if you had held him captive and not harmed him.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    I think the bigger concern is why didn't your son react on his own when a stranger was touching him?

    Not saying its your fault, but it is a thankfully a good learning experience and I'd have a discussion with your son on strangers, what he should do and what happened.

    I think it is a good thing that you did not pull your CCW and you handled it well - much better than most, I am sure.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Good outcome. Questions.
    How big was the guy?
    How big are you?
    Could you reasonably "take" him in fight?
    Could he have harmed your son?
    If you went to the use of OC spray would it have worked or would your son and or yourself been affected?
    OR
    After your shove if you had put your weapon on his nose would you have been ready?
    The guy was about 6'2 about 200 pounds
    Im 6'0 about 215
    I could have taken him in a fight. I guess I did take him in a fight.
    He could have harmed little man. I took my eye off of him for about 3 seconds.
    I carry a knife, no OC. I didnt think about the knife to be honest.

    I gave him a shoulder to the middle of his back to get the boy back in my control, After the boy was behind me, thats when I gave him the double chest punch, and yelled at him. If he would have deployed a weapon I would have done so also. Like I said earlier, the plan of attack was already planed, before I took action.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I hope they caught the guy. This is one I would be very conflicted on, given the presence and involvement of the guy whose well-being is the most important thing in your life.
    I can understand the conflict your talking about. Its something, to be honest, that still plays in my mind. In my heart I know I did the right thing.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Darn HB I don't talk to you for a couple of days and you go out and get in trouble.

    First glad your son is ok. Second deploying your weapon or any weapon at that point, to me, would have been above and beyond what was called for. You responded to a threat on your son with reasonable physical force for the situation as long as you were prepared to escalate should the need arise.

    Think of it this way you see this situation developing and you draw your firearm, knife whatever and take whatever action. When all is said and done your son says "Dad I just asked him where the hershey's with almonds was". You did fine.
    Harryball likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    From another thread, there is a discussion about whether do deploy your weapon or not. I am of the belief that your gun is the last tool in your tool bag you should use. Here is a scenario, that happened to me in a local QD....Link to other thread for reference...Noticing a new trend

    I needed a cup of coffee and my little guy wanted a beef jerky. So we went into the convenience store. There is a DVD rental kiosk in the store, so we went back to the soda isle, I thought I would get a two liter of Diet dew while we were there. Upon entering the store, I noticed an individual that looked strange, even by my standard...

    So we are at the soda isle. The strange looking guy was walking around the store looking around, trying to find something. What he was looking for I have no idea. So I look in the cooler, find my Diet Dew, open the door and the stranger has his hand on Tre's back pushing him toward the front door of the store. This is when I acted. I put my shoulder to the middle of his back, grabbed tre' and told said stranger to back up. He looked at me with distaste. I then pushed him back and yelled, leave my boy alone. At this point all attention was on him. He ran out of the store. Store called the PD.

    Now, my question to all of you is this. Did I need to pull my weapon out and draw this guy down, or did my H2H work to solve this situation? I did what I felt was right for the level of the threat. What say you.....
    I am VERY glad that your son is unharmed and that you were able to put an end to the situation in YOUR way. With that being said, and seeing the description of the BG, which you provided, I'll alter YOUR scenario to fit MY response....

    I am 64, 5'8", 190, not necessarily in the best possible condition, both athletically (can't run 5 miles daily like I used to) and physically (bad back)...I have an "almost" 3 year old granddaughter, AVA, who I take care of during the week (daytime), and have since she was 3 months old (another long story)...She is now of the age, that she enjoys a lil bit of freedom, which I give her, when walking in WalMart, QuickStops, Waffle House, etc. However, I will emphasize, that with the exception of a few seconds, like yourself, she is ALWAYS within my sight or reach (even for an old fart like myself responding).

    I'm most probably not, considering my size, age, and physical condition, not going to be successful in "physically" engaging the BG (based on him being 6'2", 200)...My options, at the point I become aware of the BG leading AVA towards the door have been reduced significantly compared to yours. IF I carried Pepper Spray (which I don't), I might be successful in turning him around and spraying...I DO carry a blade, but IMO at that time I'm NOT in a position to deploy a blade to recover AVA. I perhaps could yell bloody murder, "HEY LET GO OF MY GRANDDAUGHTER", and draw some attention, but unless the doorway is blocked, unless there are others in the store to assist me (which most sheeple will be hesitant to do), then the BG still has AVA and is ignoring me while picking up his pace to exit the store and leave the premises...I think I've basically narrowed MY choices down at this point. He is commiting a felony kidnapping of my granddaughter and his days are NOW numbered!

    I will draw and present my weapon while shouting something along the lines of, "YOU - YOU TAKING THE LITTLE GIRL OUT OF THE STORE, STOP NOW..At this point, it's HIS choice as to how it will end. If he stops and turns and releases AVA, then "perhaps" I allow him to walk away as I call 911. If he looks over his shoulder, sees the business end of my G19 zeroed on him, and breaks to drag AVA out of the store, then based on his size (6'2"), I am confident that I have the skills to put him down while either he is moving or I am moving or both of us are moving. AVA stands perhaps 3 ft at the most. MY sight picture, at approximately 10-15 feet, of the BG will be crystal clear and I will have NO qualms whatsoever about discharging my weapon into my target. Those of you who have scoffed at the James Yeager, Tactical Response You Tube of students in his Fighting Pistol class firing on target while the cameraman was next to it, will NOW understand the stress and confidence factor that has been instilled in anyone who has trained with Yeager, and who continues to conduct stress training, just for potential circumstances as this. The thought that I might potentially hit AVA, would never cross my mind. My focus will be on stopping the threat at that point. Once the threat has been stopped, after securing my granddaughter, I will call 911, ask for an Officer AND an ambulance response, advise them I was in fear of AVA's abduction/life, and that I am awaiting their presence on scene.

    I guess, circumstances in this type of scenario, will and should dictate an individuals response. The above would be MY thoughts and MY response. HarryBall, I'm thankful everything worked out for you and am sure that YOUR response was the appropriate one for YOUR circumstances. Glad Tre is safe!
    21bubba likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Sounds like you handled it right; any further action might have come back in a negative way. it is a lot of "IFs" and could have easily turned into an assault on your part even though it "looked" like he was doing something and proving it is another.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    I am VERY glad that your son is unharmed and that you were able to put an end to the situation in YOUR way. With that being said, and seeing the description of the BG, which you provided, I'll alter YOUR scenario to fit MY response....

    I am 64, 5'8", 190, not necessarily in the best possible condition, both athletically (can't run 5 miles daily like I used to) and physically (bad back)...I have an "almost" 3 year old granddaughter, AVA, who I take care of during the week (daytime), and have since she was 3 months old (another long story)...She is now of the age, that she enjoys a lil bit of freedom, which I give her, when walking in WalMart, QuickStops, Waffle House, etc. However, I will emphasize, that with the exception of a few seconds, like yourself, she is ALWAYS within my sight or reach (even for an old fart like myself responding).

    I'm most probably not, considering my size, age, and physical condition, not going to be successful in "physically" engaging the BG (based on him being 6'2", 200)...My options, at the point I become aware of the BG leading AVA towards the door have been reduced significantly compared to yours. IF I carried Pepper Spray (which I don't), I might be successful in turning him around and spraying...I DO carry a blade, but IMO at that time I'm NOT in a position to deploy a blade to recover AVA. I perhaps could yell bloody murder, "HEY LET GO OF MY GRANDDAUGHTER", and draw some attention, but unless the doorway is blocked, unless there are others in the store to assist me (which most sheeple will be hesitant to do), then the BG still has AVA and is ignoring me while picking up his pace to exit the store and leave the premises...I think I've basically narrowed MY choices down at this point. He is commiting a felony kidnapping of my granddaughter and his days are NOW numbered!

    I will draw and present my weapon while shouting something along the lines of, "YOU - YOU TAKING THE LITTLE GIRL OUT OF THE STORE, STOP NOW..At this point, it's HIS choice as to how it will end. If he stops and turns and releases AVA, then "perhaps" I allow him to walk away as I call 911. If he looks over his shoulder, sees the business end of my G19 zeroed on him, and breaks to drag AVA out of the store, then based on his size (6'2"), I am confident that I have the skills to put him down while either he is moving or I am moving or both of us are moving. AVA stands perhaps 3 ft at the most. MY sight picture, at approximately 10-15 feet, of the BG will be crystal clear and I will have NO qualms whatsoever about discharging my weapon into my target. Those of you who have scoffed at the James Yeager, Tactical Response You Tube of students in his Fighting Pistol class firing on target while the cameraman was next to it, will NOW understand the stress and confidence factor that has been instilled in anyone who has trained with Yeager, and who continues to conduct stress training, just for potential circumstances as this. The thought that I might potentially hit AVA, would never cross my mind. My focus will be on stopping the threat at that point. Once the threat has been stopped, after securing my granddaughter, I will call 911, ask for an Officer AND an ambulance response, advise them I was in fear of AVA's abduction/life, and that I am awaiting their presence on scene.

    I guess, circumstances in this type of scenario, will and should dictate an individuals response. The above would be MY thoughts and MY response. HarryBall, I'm thankful everything worked out for you and am sure that YOUR response was the appropriate one for YOUR circumstances. Glad Tre is safe!
    Thanks for taking the time to answer the question I asked, as well as the warm wishes for Tre'. I appreciate that. My premise wasnt designed for a one size fits all scenario. I fully understand getting older, and physical limitations. There will always be, someone that doesnt fit the bill..If I were in the condition you described I probably do the same as you. Do me a favor, if you didnt have the physical limitations you have, would you use your weapon in this scenario. I have a feeling I know the answer. I think it would benefit the board..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    It is really hard to tell what actually was happening as for example the comment above about the candy aisle.

    One shout to let go of the kid and one second, is about all the leeway that can be comfortably given in such a situation.
    Yell to the man to stop and the kid to come, and if the kid can't come because s/he is being held, then it is a
    fair assumption a kidnapping is happening; but not necessarily what is happening. And, that is the problem here.

    You've got to make a split second decision based on your kid's demeanor, the "takers" demeanor, countenance, body language,
    appearance; the whole 9 yards. And you have to read it right or you will be tomorrows headline and discussion here on
    DC.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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