Scenario: How to apply Rule #4? - Page 2

Scenario: How to apply Rule #4?

This is a discussion on Scenario: How to apply Rule #4? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Seems like the original description of \"no win scenario\" is very accurate here. Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch offered a similar scenario (lecture not a ...

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Thread: Scenario: How to apply Rule #4?

  1. #16
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    Seems like the original description of \"no win scenario\" is very accurate here.

    Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch offered a similar scenario (lecture not a drill) where you are sitting in a restaurant and someone comes in and starts shooting people. You have a handgun, what do you do? After most of us opined to shoot the guy, his emphatic solution was to not shoot unless the BG was an immediate threat to you or yours.

    I thought that was about as cold as it could get, but he followed with, what\'s wrong with letting those being threatened defend themselves? Then, suppose you shoot and kill the BG and save 20 lives but one of your bullets put an innocent\'s eye out or worse. Then he pointed out that we are responsible for every bullet. The fact that we saved 20 doesn\'t mean anything; in fact, he suggested that they could even testify against you, arguing that you made the situation worse by shooting.

    According to Clint, as a result of the civil suit (if an innocent was hit/killed), life as you know it would be over. You would lose your property, savings, and salary.

    It\'s something to think about.


  2. #17
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    Well, clint is wrong. I\'d gladly give up my livelyhood to do the right thing. I wouldn\'t be able to live with the shame and guilt of allowing people to die. Listening to clint\'s advice makes you a pretty crappy sheepdog.

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by clubsoda22
    Well, clint is wrong. I\'d gladly give up my livelyhood to do the right thing. I wouldn\'t be able to live with the shame and guilt of allowing people to die. Listening to clint\'s advice makes you a pretty crappy sheepdog.
    I know, it sounds cold; does to me too, but if you have a family to raise and all your savings, house and car and much of your future earnings are going to support another family, what kind of provider are you going to be for your family?

    Who does a good sheepdog put first, his flock or another flock?

    What if the BG\'s buddy shoots you for shooting his buddy? Who provides for your family?

    All I\'m saying is, it can be very complex and we need to understand the ramifications of entering a gunfight on someone elses'behalf.

    Do you carry to protect you and yours or everybody you perceive as good guys? It makes a difference.

    I too would have a hard time living, knowing I let innocents die without doing something, but how would I feel about interceding on someone else\'s behalf and wound up unable to provide for or protect my own family.

    Clint\'s not alone; most trainers I know strongly warn against interceding. It is just simply dangerous. I have done it in FOF scenarios at Gunsite and it\'s never what you think it is.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Tangle,
    fully understand your points, but in re reading the original scenario, the shooter makes a direct path for you, gun drawn and seemingly telegraphing his intent. If you are in his direct path and are not seated at the back door, ya gonna hafta do somethin\'. I know it also states that you are uniformed and therefore quickly made his first target, but I believe the info given is to lead us to give our reactions as if it were shoot or get shot. So, yes, if you can escape, haul. But, if you\'ve got nowhere to go and the muzzle is coming to bear on your pretty little pumpkin...is there really a choice?
    Scott, correct me if I am misunderstanding the gist of your post, Sir.

    Dan

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by jdsumner
    Tangle,
    fully understand your points, but in re reading the original scenario, the shooter makes a direct path for you, gun drawn and seemingly telegraphing his intent. If you are in his direct path and are not seated at the back door, ya gonna hafta do somethin\'. I know it also states that you are uniformed and therefore quickly made his first target, but I believe the info given is to lead us to give our reactions as if it were shoot or get shot. So, yes, if you can escape, haul. But, if you\'ve got nowhere to go and the muzzle is coming to bear on your pretty little pumpkin...is there really a choice?
    Scott, correct me if I am misunderstanding the gist of your post, Sir.

    Dan
    Dan you have it right. This is a \"no win\" that a local PD uses in their training. You shoot or you get shot, that is the deal. No other way out.

    What motivated my posting this anyway was that Bumper took some criticism for only posting the first three NRA safety rules, versus the first four. So I was curious how people believed they could or would apply rule #4 in a self defense scenario.

    I already know I didn\'t apply rule #4, so I wouldn\'t expect that I would in the future.

  6. #21
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    My CCW instructor gave us many different scenarios and I think they were meant to get our noggins working. He would give us a scenario and want an answer quickly. He knew how we were going to answer, I am sure. Some of them where he explained to us of why we might not get involved (and made his point very well) we turned the table on him and asked him what he would have done. His answer was, in several of the scenarios, the same as ours. Some scenarios are not meant to have a right or wrong answer, they are meant to make you consider the ramifications and the liability of your actions. We all have to make our own decision in a real life encounter. I believe, IMHO, that scenarios are helpful in making an informed decision.

  7. #22
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    The question asked in the initial post was, \"\"Since we are talking about combat or defensive carry/shooting, and not target shooting or hunting, does Rule #4 apply?\"

    My answer is yes, rule 4 applies. How would it not apply? We will not be excused of liability, especially civil, if we shoot an innocent. We are responsible for every bullet we shoot. We may not be have criminal charges brought against us, but we will surely have a devastating civil suit filed against us. And, negligent homicide couldn\'t be ruled out either.

    How would you feel if someone shot and killed your son or daughter in the process of shooting a BG in 1.75 seconds? Would you accept that they were justified in ignoring rule 4?

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Absolutely awsome point, and way to put it in perspective, Tangle. \"no wins\" suck. period. Thanks for the new view, Tangle.
    Tangle, I hope you didnt take my last post to mean leaving was wrong, or that your answere wasnt correct, I just read the post to mean that there really was no choice. Because in my first reply I tried to emphasize that I did think #4 was still in effect. I am one gone cat if there is a hole big enough to get my head thru:), but IF forced to fight, I\'m hopin'my plan to change my angle results in only the bg taking a slug.

    Dan

  9. #24
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    Dan,
    I appreciate the kind words. \"No wins\" do suck, and unfortunately they may be more apt to happen than we think.

    From lots of Sumunitions FOF scenario training at Gunsite, I have discovered that gunfights are never what they appear to be, are very unpredictable, can get completely out of control in a split second, and a lot of people can get shot in the process.

    Gunsite emphasizes escaping if at all possible and their scenario drills clearly illustrate the consequences of engaging in a gunfight.

    I think it\'s Clint Smith that says, \"Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.\"

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tangle
    I think it\'s Clint Smith that says, \"Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.\"
    And that\'s one of the reasons I live where I do. In Idaho, I\'m not particularly worried about civil suits in relation to defending myself or others.

    If I miss and hit someone else inadvertently, I did something wrong and I\'ll pay for it.

    In the no-win described, I\'ll try to win. It\'s better than not winning at all.

    My old lady would rather I came out alive than didn\'t, came home (even if we had to find another home) than didn\'t, and stuff can always be replaced.

    I have some duty to my fellow man - it may be stupid to think that way in this day and age, but well, in that respect my daddy at least raised me right.

    I can\'t stand by and think what it\'ll be like if I failed to act and live. I\'ve pulled and shot in the past with no regrets.

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