Man with baby scenario

This is a discussion on Man with baby scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So you're walking across the parking lot to enter your favorite grocery store. It's hot out, you're tired, you just want a head of lettuce ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Man with baby scenario

  1. #1
    VIP Member
    Array Betty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nashville-ish
    Posts
    3,184

    Man with baby scenario

    So you're walking across the parking lot to enter your favorite grocery store. It's hot out, you're tired, you just want a head of lettuce and some milk...

    All of a sudden, you hear the screaming of a woman who's obviously in distress. You run to where the screams are coming from and come across this scene:

    In between a bunch of parked cars, there's a little lady pummeling and scratching a large man who's holding on to her baby. (For this scenario, this man is a total stranger and the baby is indeed hers.) She's screaming "Help! Someone! He's got my baby! He's taking my baby, help!" There's broken glass at their feet where her car window has been smashed! The man is holding a tire iron in his free hand.

    The man is screaming at her in a language you don't understand. He won't let her have the baby, and he's just shoved his foot into her stomach, sending her to the ground.

    What do you do!
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    15,844
    call 911, attempt to get his attention from a good area of cover. Over the hood of the car, ect. Hand on weapon , but not drawn. Order him to set the baby on the ground away from the glass and lay face down.
    If he swings the tire iron on the woman , he is using deadly force, or if he repeatedly kicks the woman. Otherwise if I can distract him long enough for PD to show and Tase or pepper spray him then so much the better .
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    25,996
    Quote Originally Posted by Betty View Post
    For this scenario, this man is a total stranger and the baby is indeed hers. She's screaming "Help! Someone! He's got my baby! He's taking my baby, help!" What do you do!
    This is a hypothetical, so for grins we "know" the facts here.

    In reality, one doesn't. Coming into a situation I know nothing about, where two folks are arguing, abusing, striking, and there's a child in between, there's no upside for me to get immediately between these two people.

    (Ever try breaking up a barnyard or junkyard fight between two dogs? You end up bit, cut, attacked by both. BTDT.)

    Possibilities: One of them's in the right; both are in the right, but angry; neither is in the right; one is indeed a criminal perp bent on stealing the child and/or harming the woman. In all cases, the child is nearby, possibly in one or the other's arms. Either might be armed. Either might be insane, doped up, whatever. I can decide to intervene, but almost certainly, I'm going to be confronted by at least one of them, if not both.

    The reality? Every variant I can think of has no upside. It's a morass, physically and legally. Nobody would see me as the good guy, no matter how it turned out. That matters a heck of a lot, since what I'm risking is my future freedom and financial well-being over these folks I don't know. In short: unless the child's life is in immediate and grave harm, I would hop on the phone and remain at a distance.

    911, every time. It's why LEO's train the way they do, so they can take control of such situations.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #4
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    First step - move to an advantaged position and call 911. Report possible kidnapping of a child in progress.

    I would attempt to engage the subject in a non-threatening fashion at first. "Hey, what's going on here?", that sort of thing. Maybe ask an off-the wall question to disrupt the guy's OODA loop for a moment.

    If he tries to leave, step it up a touch. "Hey, man, the police are on the way. It won't look good for you if you take off..."

    It is hard to assess a hypothetical like this in a static environment.

    That said, the other side of this coin is that if he is a stranger, the chances are good that if he leaves with the child, the child will never be seen alive again.

    The use of deadly force to prevent the commission of kidnapping in Florida is lawful.

    If the situation plays out in a manner that I believe that he is a stranger, and this is a kidnapping, I am going to do whatever it takes to prevent his departure while I await the police.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    MICHIGAN
    Posts
    1,275
    Tough situation Betty, and one near to my heart with young kids involved.
    +1 with calling 911.
    1.I get the advantage of cover.
    2. announce myself and that I have a firearm
    3. tell them LEO is on the way
    4. ask gentleman to put down the weapon, in a demanding manner
    5. try to de-escalate the situation until LEO shows.
    6. only use deadly force, if the tire iron get used on someone, or the baby seems to be in danger. No matter what the baby is not at fault, and because I happen to be there, it is now my responsibility to make sure the baby is not harmed until LEO show up, because he/she can not protect itself.
    ----DOC-----

    --people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--

    NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Given your parameters, we'll say the woman is someone I know, at least passingly well enough to know the guy is not part of her social circle. Lots of assumptions, but again, within the described parameters: if he turns/moves to leave, the situation is one of Eminent Peril-shoot to the lower body, and assuming that the child falls free, zipper on up. If he stands there stupidly, draw, give one verbal challenge, apply turdicide as needed, if he does anything but freeze.

    The tireiron, brandished as described is lethal force as long as he holds it. The gentleman may not understand English, and my conversance in A-Hole is fairly limited- he does get the benefit of one direction, however. He just kicked a woman he does not know down, and is in possession of her child. You won't de-escalate this without overwhelming force, denying his escape, clearly present.

    If you're going to intervene, you have to do it before worrying about 911- the dispatcher will be telling you to sit tight, get a description, etc., etc.. The choice is pretty basic: act, or call.

    This isn't too far off, with the increasing presence of MS13, and similar. Let's be honest, in the situation described, LE is not better trained, just trained to take into custody, if possible.
    Last edited by Rob72; September 1st, 2006 at 02:56 PM.

  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Array Jamie Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    559
    The man is holding a tire iron in his free hand.

    I would pull my gun and tell the SOB to freeze, after he dropped the iron I would call 911.

  9. #8
    VIP Member
    Array Betty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nashville-ish
    Posts
    3,184
    Can I throw my monkey wrench in yet, or should I wait for more replies?
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    MICHIGAN
    Posts
    1,275
    Let's hear it. I love monkey wrenches!
    ----DOC-----

    --people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--

    NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines

  11. #10
    Member Array jonathancase's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Jackson, Ms
    Posts
    69
    As far as i am concerned, with him having a tire iron in his free hand, both the baby and lady are in immediate danger. Call 911 and advise them of the situation and that i am armed and intervening. I would demand he drop the weapon and hand the baby to the mother. Just trying to keep the BG at bay until the LEO's arive. As i think about it, Getting as many bystanders to help may be a good idea. The BG might give in just due to the shear number of people involved in getting the baby to the mother.

  12. #11
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    443
    Throw the wrench

  13. #12
    Senior Member
    Array Jamie Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    559
    Is this going to turn into a Betty version of Punk'd?

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    1,221
    Call 911, get other bystanders to help, ask the dude politely to drop the tire iron and move away from the woman (I don't issue verbal commands to anyone but my dog). As long as he did not continue the assault, I would keep talking to him calmly until LE arrived. If he otherwise continued assaulting the woman or employed the tire iron against another person, I would likely draw and kill him. I would not reveal that I have a weapon to anybody until the BG absolutely had to be stopped with deadly force. I would likely assume that the man is the baby's estranged father since men generally don't snatch little babies out of the blue. That said I would not immediately ask to have him hand over the baby so long as it was not in danger. Further, I would try to calm the woman down and let her know that LE is on the way. Hopefully, bystanders would be helping to secure the scene so that the man can't leave with the baby before LE arrives.
    Last edited by lowflyer; September 2nd, 2006 at 12:42 AM.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  15. #14
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    356
    I may be seemingly taking a stong converse stance on this, but I see two things: 1. man with a lethal weapon in hand (tire iron). 2. innocent child in the attempt to being kidnapped. As far as I am concerned, that's all I need to know.

    The woman is saying that this man is taking her baby. This means she's already established that this is a possible kidnapping. The man has a tire iron which establishes that he not only has the ability but the intent to cause serious bodily injury if not death (and also shows further intent on kidnapping by force). In my state kidnapping is a "special" lethal force encounter (automatic lethal force justification for specific crimes) and is only aggravated by the use of a lethal weapon. His assault on the woman also aggravates the use of lethal force and intention to kidnap the child.

    I would tell someone else to call 9-1-1 ("call 9-1-1, a little kid is being kidnapped by a guy" would do). I would give him one warning to let the child go and drop the weapon while I draw. If he so much as moves his hand carrying the tire iron and I have a good shot, the BG is going down. If not, kneecap or thigh is what I'm taking. I just hope that the woman is a good catcher. Minor cuts and scrapes that can heal are a hell of a lot better than death that you can't heal from.

    Cheers.

  16. #15
    VIP Member
    Array Betty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nashville-ish
    Posts
    3,184
    And now for the monkey wrench.

    He hadn't been in the country long, having immigrated only a few months earlier. He knew little English, but happily learned as he went, found himself a decent job and just got his first car. He just arrived at the the grocery store, parking alongside a little car. As he got out of his air conditioned car and felt the midday heat strike him, he looked over and couldn't help but notice the reddish doll in the little car beside him. It was peculiar, because it was very realistic looking, strapped into the car seat.

    Upon closer inspection, it realized it wasn't a doll at all, but a real human baby, red-faced and appearing to be unconscious. Someone left a baby in this car in the terrible heat of the day!

    The man's heart jumped right up into his throat. He looked around the parking lot, yelled out HELP! (one word he did know in English), saw no one, and immediately began to try to open the doors. They were all locked. He had to break a window to get to the baby.

    So went into his trunk, grabbed his tire iron, and bashed the window in. He reached in and pulled out the tiny baby, who was limp in his arms, breathing very slightly. If there was one chance of saving this baby, it had to be done fast. He had to get out of the sun, into the cool shade, and needed to find help to call the police.

    And then he turned around to discover himself under a flurry of fists. It was a woman screaming at him and trying to pull the baby away. Was this the mother? He was frightened, thought about the limp body in his arms, and saw the grocery store that was between him and the angry woman. There was no time to spare. He had to get there, to get help. He used his foot to shove her to the ground. It was then he saw a person running up to the scene...you.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Stupid: Carjacked with baby in car...running after car to get the baby back
    By Sejune in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: November 28th, 2010, 07:23 PM
  2. Worse Scenario:Woman with baby attacked by gunman
    By cbp210 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: April 5th, 2010, 11:55 PM
  3. My new baby
    By BigEFan in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: August 11th, 2007, 02:20 PM
  4. Scenario: ACTUAL Scenario
    By QKShooter in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: May 2nd, 2005, 02:31 PM
  5. Scenario: Tactical scenario, true story
    By Hotelcharlie in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: February 24th, 2005, 01:38 PM

Search tags for this page

baby scenario

Click on a term to search for related topics.