Protection or Being the Hero?

Protection or Being the Hero?

This is a discussion on Protection or Being the Hero? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I notice a lot of these hypotheticals, not all by any means, but quite a few, contain an element of being the hero. There are ...

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Thread: Protection or Being the Hero?

  1. #1
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    Protection or Being the Hero?

    I notice a lot of these hypotheticals, not all by any means, but quite a few, contain an element of being the hero.

    There are a lot of multiple attackers, involvement of children, women victims, saving a cop whose being overpowered, etc.

    How many of you fantasize about being the hero with your gun? I readily admit as a new gun owner and as I am still considering CC or not, I have these fantasies. I feel stupid for having them, because the real reason to CC is self defense not to be a superhero. The chance of ever having reason to use a CW is slim and I would guess the opportunity to be a hero even slimmer, but the thought is there.

    I notice a lot of responses indicate "you are not law enforcement." Having a gun doesn't mean jump into any situation you encounter.

    Why do people have these fantasies?

    After having read here for a number of weeks and having been to numerous gun shows, I think that gun owners fall into two generic categories

    1. Gun enthusiasts. They hunt, target shot, carry, but don't really think much about it except that it's a tool. They care about gun rights, but aren't extremists. Carry for protection.

    2. Heroes. They are proud of the fact that they carry, believe they can double tap someone right in the precise part of the brain that kills someone instantly so that the BG can't pull the trigger of a gun held to a hostage's head, even reflexively. Mack Bolans. Totalitarian government is right around the corner and they are the cornerstone of defense. They will stop a criminal someday.

    Crap, another post that will annoy some, but I'm only describing what I'm seeing.

    Agree, disagree? Set me straight if I'm wrong. Or yell at me - it's only the internet...


  2. #2
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    To me, helping a person in need has nothing to do with being a hero and patting myself on the back, it's about doing the right thing.

    I think it's fairly normal to want to be the rescuer, since we've taken upon ourselves to carry in self-defense, many of us also want to defend our loved ones. We have empathy for victims, we don't like bad guys, we don't want the bad guys to hurt innocent people.

    Discussing scenarios keeps our thought processes going, and hopefully will some day come in handy should we ever have to draw our weapons. What we learn here through the scenarios and from each other can keep us from getting badly involved in a situtation we misjudged, or properly involved in a good shoot.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  3. #3
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    While there are always some out there who are immature , I think most of us here are responsible, cautious folks. I will not step in unless necessary, but I will not stand by while a woman or child is being killed either.
    I doubt most or any of the scenarios posted will happen to many (if any of us) but better to think things out and try to pre plan for most eventualities rather than go unprepared.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  4. #4
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    This is the discussion that I have with my girlfriend every night after reading here: "It sounds crazy, but it's hard to argue with the logic of thinking through every scenario or being overly cautious, because, well, you never know..."

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    I suspect, gun or no gun - many folks have imagined a ''I saved the day'' situation. If that is based on altruistic motives then I doubt - as pure fantasy - there is too much to worry about.

    The danger IMO tho would be letting what is harmless fantasy stand any chance of entering the real world. Indeed we are not most of us, LE and we carry as a means of defending self and those dear to us - a mechanism to be used only ''in extremis''.

    We have often discussed - sometimes quite heatedly - about whether we come to the aid of an unknown third party. This is down to the individual and extant circumstances - there may be no specific right or wrong answer. ''Play it as you see it'' is my maxim.

    I would not criticize anyone for admitting to a fantasy - heck we all have them to some degree. The real test of maturity and responsibility is recognizing a fantasy as being - just that.
    Chris - P95
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    Member Array Leadslinger's Avatar
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    Not particularly annoyed by this post.

    But I think your selection of words ..... Hero and Fantasize will

    definately draw some heat. Too many action movies maybe??

    Your not the guy from Taxi Driver are you ??

    Anyway heres my take on it : If you sit around daydreaming about being a "hero" and "saving the day". One day you might put yourself in a BAD situation trying to be that "hero", you want to be so bad. Live in the real world, and realize that in a deadly force situation, it can/ and most probably will be a traumatic experience for you (the shooter).
    The majority of people that carry a weapon, don't do it in an attempt to be a "hero". The LAST thing they want is to have to do is shoot someone. They are just good people that refuse to be a victim. It's all about common sense. If someone is lacking that ..
    then the last thing they need to do is a carry a gun.

    As for you wanting to Save the Day....
    Too much testosterone and macho T.V. puts ideas into people's heads. Use common sense, and don't go looking for a fight, cause one thing is for sure. If you going looking for it, your going to find it. And this ain't Deathwish, and You ain't Charles Bronson.




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  7. #7
    Member Array AceRider's Avatar
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    Are you talking to me? ARE YOU TAKING TO ME?!

    Actually, I am one of the tempered ones, fantasize is just a word to describe vague thoughts. I question, though, some of the "close call" posts:

    "I was in a store and a black guy walked in. He saw me and therefore thought twice and didnt' rob the place. I had my hand on my gun and was ready to go."

    These posts scare me. I have been in stores late at night and can tell you that not everyone who looks dangerous actually is. Being somewhere at night, encountering someone dressed a certain way automatically raises people's alarms.

    But sometimes it's a false alarm. Not every gang banger looking guy entering a store at night is actually a banger or there to rob it.

    Nervous looks around aren't always the actions of someone casing a store; maybe they are someone else's condition yellow? Hell, gang bangers are probably in an even higher paranoid condition than that every waking moment.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Here's my take...
    If we don't do these kind of "rock drills"....thinking through courses of action ahead of time, based on our day to day activities, weighing pros and cons, then if, despite prior planning and maintaining siituational awareness, the circumstances lead to some nefarious character putting my life or my family's life at risk--I want to be able to react in a decisive manner...not second guess, giving the BG time to realize what is about to happen to him/her.

    Practice and drills are not limited to "tap, rack, bang", reloading, sight picture, trigger control, etc...there is also the mental preparedness that goes along with carrying to defend self and loved ones. If you carry, I assume at some point you have mentally prepared yourself to use it if the time calls for it.

    If you carry because it's cool or want to play Dirty Harry/super undercover PO/vigilante--then you're no better than a punk with a "gat".

    If you want carry to be a responsible member of society, then, partner, we have something in common, and am apt to call you friend.

    Are there some posts that concern me, yes.
    "Scare me"? no

    Do I believe everything I read on the Internet? No. Do you?

    Any tactical training course worth anything will tell you mental preparation is almost everything...if you've practiced the physical skills to shoot, but haven't had the mental preparation, you're more likely to "vapor lock" when the time comes.
    Last edited by SIGguy229; September 1st, 2006 at 12:23 PM.

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I'm with Betty. It doesn't have anything to do with being a hero - its about the idealistic right thing, and having the means to do it. We, much like LEO's, have no duty to protect but some of us believe that we do. Different breed of sheepdog I suppose. It all depends on your life experience and what you have seen. I've been in enough simulated gunfights to know that your bullets go where you want about 1/4 of the time - if you're lucky. There is a line to be drawn there where your risk needs to be weighed with the scenario and what you have at your disposal.

    Remaining calm is key and so is playing it by ear. I think its a good idea to "fantasize" as long, as P95 said, you recognize it for what it is. Never allow yourself to get int oa rut of "If - then" because you are getting yourself into a rut and leaving no room for Murphy and his games. Running scenarios in your head with different settings can be good for mental practice....
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    I don't want to be a hero, I prefer to run under the radar and avoid notice. There is, however, the concept of doing the right thing. In my life I have rescued a few people in the ocean, crawled into bad car wrecks and tried my best to keep people alive untill help got there and even stood over a friends wife and kids armed in an attemted kidnapping situation. I did it not to be a hero but because I had the training, the will and the desire to do what I believe was the right thing to do in an often bad world. I used to believe anyone would be this way but over the years I've discovered that most people will just stare stupidly while few will act, sad.....
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  11. #11
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    Part of carrying is being very discrete about it and not having others know you are carrying. It is one of those "don't ask, don't tell" deals. As to being the hero, with the way things are today, the only reason that I carry and build carry guns for those who do is simple, protection. If my life or those I care about is threatened with deadly force, I can and will react in an appropriate manner. I will not volunteer to help police unless asked, I will not draw down on someone that has a weapon on me unless I decide they intend to shoot me and my only chance of survival is drawing and firing. If you carry, then you MUST have training to use the tool and you MUST have the mindset to never go out armed in a "condition white" frame of mind. You must ALWAYS be in a "condition yellow" or higher mindset. If you carry and have a coach potatoe mind set, then you are better off leaving it home.

    Jess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty View Post
    To me, helping a person in need has nothing to do with being a hero and patting myself on the back, it's about doing the right thing.

    I think it's fairly normal to want to be the rescuer, since we've taken upon ourselves to carry in self-defense, many of us also want to defend our loved ones. We have empathy for victims, we don't like bad guys, we don't want the bad guys to hurt innocent people.

    Discussing scenarios keeps our thought processes going, and hopefully will some day come in handy should we ever have to draw our weapons. What we learn here through the scenarios and from each other can keep us from getting badly involved in a situtation we misjudged, or properly involved in a good shoot.
    For me it is as Betty said above...it's about doing the right thing! I do use a couple of 'rules' though:

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, do nothing." - Dante

    "They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Benjamin Franklin

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.” - Patrick Henry

    Luke 11:21 "When a man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are undisturbed."

    “If violent crime is to be curbed it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore, what he must be taught to fear is the victim." - Jeff Cooper, the father of modern combat hand gunning.

    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."- John Wayne

    "Well, there are some things a man just can't run away from."- John Wayne

    "A man ought to do what he thinks is right…"-John Wayne

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein, "Beyond This Horizon", 1942

    "The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness." -Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)

    "There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men."
    -Robert A. Heinlein, "Methuselah's Children"

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797) - English statesman

    "We do not have enough things to kill off the weak and the stupid these days. But to stay alive as an armed citizen a man has to be either quick with his wits or with his hands, preferably both. It's a good thing."-- "Beyond This Horizon" by Robert A. Heinlein, 1942

    From 'Rules for a Gunfight'--21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    I think most will see what the intent is...we as individuals in a free society have the right & RESPONSIBILTY to do the right thing, in ANY situation. Are we always successful?...No, but when it come to matters of life & death, hopefully, we get it right & prevail.

    As to the firearm, it is a tool to use IF needed. As with all tools you have, you should be proficient with it. Just having the weapon isn't enough, you need to know HOW & WHEN to use it & when NOT to use it.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  13. #13
    Senior Moderator
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    Why do people have these fantasies?
    I think that its a perfectly natural thing for a person to want to be a hero at one time or another. Its a higher calling, when someone rises to the occasion and prevails against the odds. Its the very reason that movies like The Patriot, Braveheart, Tombstone and other movies that feature heroes become box office hits...when good prevails over evil.

    After having read here for a number of weeks and having been to numerous gun shows, I think that gun owners fall into two generic categories

    1. Gun enthusiasts. They hunt, target shot, carry, but don't really think much about it except that it's a tool. They care about gun rights, but aren't extremists. Carry for protection.
    I do all of the above. To some people, the fact that I own a gun puts me in the "extremist" category. To others the fact that I hunt puts me in it. Others call me one for the fact that I carry a gun just to be able protect myself. I am an LEO. I've had people tell me that cops become cops "just to shoot somebody." I cant even begin to tell you how ridiculous and stupid that sounds.

    2. Heroes. They are proud of the fact that they carry, believe they can double tap someone right in the precise part of the brain that kills someone instantly so that the BG can't pull the trigger of a gun held to a hostage's head, even reflexively. Mack Bolans. Totalitarian government is right around the corner and they are the cornerstone of defense. They will stop a criminal someday.
    First of all, your definition of a "HERO" is not the same as mine. To me a HERO is just an ordinary person that did the best he could with the tools that he had to overcome the odds at a time when it seemed impossible. I have had the priveledge of meeting several honest to God heros.
    None of them thought of being a hero at the time.
    They all had one thing in common.They all wanted to do the right thing.

    You might notice that that appears to be a common statement in this thread. People just want to do the right thing, when their lives or even someone elses lives are at stake. There are those that insist they will not intervene unless their life or the lives of their family is in jeopardy, but many will choose to not stand idly by when their fellow man needs help. These are the people that live by the Golden Rule, which basically stated is to treat others as you would like to be treated.

    Many of these same people are able to see things from a different perspective than what the average person that is fed a steady diet of the nightly news might think. The average person may think that
    those that arm themselves are waiting for the day for the world to come crashing down, but history tells us the average folks are the ones that will seek protection from and even migrate too the armed ones when it does.

    There is an old saying that says "misery loves company". I think that people that for some reason or another wont take the responsibility of defending themselves arent even capable of understanding why someone else would choose not to be at the mercy of an aggressor. In their case, it would take a life threatening act to ever change their minds. When trouble happens, they have no means in which to correct the situation, and they hope and pray that someone else can.

    The rest of us armed folk...
    We just want to be able to respond appropriatley when it does. Or at least TRY to take care of the situation.Whether it pans out or not, at least we can say that we did our best.
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    I have to say, most of my pucker-factor incidents were when I was uniformed, and prohibited from carrying (EMS/Corrections). There was a lot of fast, calm, conversation, and judicious body positioning. This is about as heroic as I care to be. I've also seen a few people, men and women, get pretty roughed up, bloody, actually. I'll be frank, unless you are "one of mine", I don't much care. If I can intervene, with minimal risk/cost to myself, I will, otherwise...... This comes from the sure knowledge that people seldom find themselves in pain they did not, in one fashion or another, choose.

    Get drunk at a street festival? Odds are good you'll get thumped. Take your GF to a strip club, and let/encourage her to be frisky with other guys? You better be a real Bad-A. There are situations of good, aware and intelligent, people in the wrong place, at the wrong time, getting in trouble- these are rare. For instigators and idiots (the vast majority)- they can play the hand they draw, on their own.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Here is my take on it.

    The odds are in my favor that I will never have to use my CCW. I am thrilled about that. However the odds were heavily against, me being struck by lightning. I survived an indirect hit, when I was 12. Is it fantasizing for me to consider scenarios that lessens my chances of taking another hit?


    I am no Hollywood type hero, who thumb cocks his *Glock, while uttering some pithy remark, an instant before blowing away the BG and saving the U.S., the world, and quite possible the known universe from certain doom . (Yes I know that was a run on sentence.)

    The real hero's are those who shoulder their responsibilities and work hard to do the right thing, day after day. That rarely involves saving the world. More often than not, it is about providing for, and demonstrating your love for your wife and kids every day. Or it is about signing up to defend your country, and voting for those you feel will make good use of their office, rather than voting for your wallet. In short it is doing the right thing even though it costs you something, and you don’t want to do it.

    For me, CCW is about coming home at night, and providing for my family. I don't often remember my dreams, but let me tell you, I have had nightmares about having to even draw my weapon in defense. It is the second to last thing I ever want to have to do. (The absolute last , is having to live with the knowledge that some BG murdered my family because I couldn't be bothered to shoulder the responsibility for their safety. The next to last is getting killed myself, and leaving my wife to raise our children alone.)

    When it comes to an unknown third party, extreme caution should be exercised. Let me repeat that. When it comes to an unknown third party, extreme caution should be exercised. Just for good measure, one more time. When it comes to an unknown third party, extreme caution should be exercised. Having said that...

    Proverbs 3:27 Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.

    Most of the time, that good is probably no more than dialing 911. U Unfortunately sometimes, it may be more complicated.







    * yes, I know glocks don’t have an external hammer

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