Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question.

This is a discussion on Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Miketrance Yes I have no doubt you're a real tough guy. Try that with the wrong person, and you'll be dodging bullets. ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array W9HDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    Yes I have no doubt you're a real tough guy. Try that with the wrong person, and you'll be dodging bullets. Yes, I am from Milwaukee where running your mouth to the wrong person gets you shot. What are you going to do when 4 guys with automatic weapons get out of that car, and they didn't like the way you spoke to them. The reality is, no matter how tough you think you are someone out there is tougher or has more to prove than you do. If you can't be nice while approaching a stranger, you're best served keeping your mouth shut.

    I would like to see you read someone the riot act on 2nd and North at 1am. But you're right I'm "special" because I think you should keep your mouth shut or address people politely. Try to put the bravado away, and take my ideas into consideration with an open mind. Coming from an area where the only crime is a tipped over cow, I doubt you truly realise how much trouble your mouth can get you into.

    No one ever wins a fight, even if you come out on top you still killed someone. You're going to go over that day in your mind over and over for a very long time. You will wonder if I was just a bit more polite, would that guy still be alive? I would need to know that there was truly nothing I could do, if it ever came down to me having to take someone else's life.
    You need to read my post...I said if you offend me I will be Polite, but NOT <--READ NOT nice about it. "Excuse me Sir" can get yourself in as much trouble as just saying "Could you turn that noise down." As far as encountering 4 guys with automatic weapons, that's called SA, I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. I am so tired of you Milwaukee people thinking you're so bad. Did you ever stop to think that if good people actually did something once in awhile that perhaps then maybe Milwaukee wouldn't be the mess that it is?

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  3. #32
    Member Array Miketrance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W9HDG View Post
    You need to read my post...I said if you offend me I will be Polite, but NOT <--READ NOT nice about it. "Excuse me Sir" can get yourself in as much trouble as just saying "Could you turn that noise down." As far as encountering 4 guys with automatic weapons, that's called SA, I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. I am so tired of you Milwaukee people thinking you're so bad. Did you ever stop to think that if good people actually did something once in awhile that perhaps then maybe Milwaukee wouldn't be the mess that it is?
    How can you be polite and not nice? You seem to have all the answers regarding Milwaukee's crime rate. Why don't you move on down here, and deal out some justice yourself? Hell, in a week or two crime should be all turned around huh? How does me advocating not starting trouble and keeping your complaints to yourself, equate me to being a tough guy? As I recall, you're the one on here parading about reading people the riot act. I'm all for stopping trouble before it starts. That's what my posts have been about.

    All it takes is a cell phone call for their buddies to join you. What good does SA do you when they follow your car as your leaving on the phone with their hood rat buddies? Then before you know it a car pulls up along side of you and riddles your car full of holes. Your just used to farm boys playing the radio too loud on the tractor. They aren't going to get a gangland shooting together, at least not until after the field is plowed.

    Knowing that your life is worth less than a pair of shoes to some people doesn't make me tough. It makes me realistic. It's obvious by reading your posts that you've never met anyone that truly didn't care about killing someone without provocation. With your psudo-tough guy persona, I hope you never do.

  4. #33
    Member Array Miketrance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W9HDG View Post
    You need to read my post...I said if you offend me I will be Polite, but NOT <--READ NOT nice about it. "Excuse me Sir" can get yourself in as much trouble as just saying "Could you turn that noise down." As far as encountering 4 guys with automatic weapons, that's called SA, I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. I am so tired of you Milwaukee people thinking you're so bad. Did you ever stop to think that if good people actually did something once in awhile that perhaps then maybe Milwaukee wouldn't be the mess that it is?
    I carry daily and if someone threatens me with deadly force, that will be their last day on Earth. That doesn't mean I'm going to go around looking for trouble. I think its about time to lay off the Death Wish movies, and take down that poster of Charles Bronson from above your bed. I can't afford my wife to go without a husband, or my son to grow up without a father because I decided that today would be the day to "do something" about Milwaukee's crime rate.

  5. #34
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    I do not claim to have the answers to Milwaukee's crime rate, and for the record, many of the former residents of Milwaukee County Jail are doing their probation here in Wausau, thanks for exporting your community's problems to my neck of the woods.

    How can you be polite and not nice? Easy. I don't go out of my way to be rude, but I also stand my ground. I have taken my kids out for ice cream only to have someone light up in front of my 1 month old son who started coughing on the smoke. What sort of person lights up in around a baby? Come on! Yes I said something. I said "Could you put that out, its making my baby cough." If that is rude because I didn't pander to the idiot by saying "Excuse me Sir but I would be so very grateful if you would put out your cigarette because it is affecting my child," then I'm guilty as charged. What I said about good people doing something goes a long way. Ever hear of a Neighborhood watch? That's good people watching out for the benefit of others, or how about civilian patrols. If people would take their safety into their own hands then perhaps the scum would get the picture that their behavior is not going to do them any good.

    As far as whether I am or am not a "tough guy," or have met some of the people who don't care for my life over a pair of shoes, well I guess you're entitled to your own opinion, just keep in mind that I really don't care what most people think of me or what they are going to do because whatever is going to happen will. What it all boils down to is I am not a sheep that waits for the police to solve my problems for me. If I lived in an area that had a notorious crime problem and the police response time was laughable, then I would do something about it. Like I said above, neighborhood watch with patrols can go a long way to preventing crime. No I don't have all the answers but I don't hide behind that either and will continue to work for a solution until one is found, or the problem gives up in frustration.

    My apologies to the OP and everyone else for taking this post so far off topic and this will be my last reply to Miketrance because apparently his experiences in Milwaukee have taught him all he needs to know about how the world works.

  6. #35
    Member Array Miketrance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W9HDG View Post
    I do not claim to have the answers to Milwaukee's crime rate, and for the record, many of the former residents of Milwaukee County Jail are doing their probation here in Wausau, thanks for exporting your community's problems to my neck of the woods.

    How can you be polite and not nice? Easy. I don't go out of my way to be rude, but I also stand my ground. I have taken my kids out for ice cream only to have someone light up in front of my 1 month old son who started coughing on the smoke. What sort of person lights up in around a baby? Come on! Yes I said something. I said "Could you put that out, its making my baby cough." If that is rude because I didn't pander to the idiot by saying "Excuse me Sir but I would be so very grateful if you would put out your cigarette because it is affecting my child," then I'm guilty as charged. What I said about good people doing something goes a long way. Ever hear of a Neighborhood watch? That's good people watching out for the benefit of others, or how about civilian patrols. If people would take their safety into their own hands then perhaps the scum would get the picture that their behavior is not going to do them any good.

    As far as whether I am or am not a "tough guy," or have met some of the people who don't care for my life over a pair of shoes, well I guess you're entitled to your own opinion, just keep in mind that I really don't care what most people think of me or what they are going to do because whatever is going to happen will. What it all boils down to is I am not a sheep that waits for the police to solve my problems for me. If I lived in an area that had a notorious crime problem and the police response time was laughable, then I would do something about it. Like I said above, neighborhood watch with patrols can go a long way to preventing crime. No I don't have all the answers but I don't hide behind that either and will continue to work for a solution until one is found, or the problem gives up in frustration.

    My apologies to the OP and everyone else for taking this post so far off topic and this will be my last reply to Miketrance because apparently his experiences in Milwaukee have taught him all he needs to know about how the world works.
    Your welcome for the parolees, since I run Milwaukee's penal system, it's nice to know it's having a positive effect. Who ever said I live in a high crime area? I have had plenty of experience with these people through work. While a neighborhood watch program sounds like an excellent idea, it's glaringly obvious that you don't know what neighborhoods I'm talking about. When 2/3rds are crackheads or lowlives, who's going to join your crime prevention club. The other third so so afraid of retribution that they won't dare stand up. I'm sure that's all the crypts or bloods or MS13 need to dissolve a good strong neighborhood watch program. What a joke.

    It's probably a good idea you're not going to respond to me, because with every post, it's apparent you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not on some grand crusade to solve the worlds crime issues. I carry to protect me, and mine. I live in a safe neighborhood, far enough away from Milwaukee. Part of protecting myself when my job takes me into a slum is to keep my head down, and mouth shut. I hope you don't walk around with a gun believing that what will happen will. You are in control of what happens to a great extent, and part of your responsibility as a CC is to not create a situation when there doesn't need to be one.

    You're obviously the type that confuses kindness with weakness. That can be a big mistake. Just because I believe addressing a stranger as Sir is the polite thing to do, doesn't make me afraid of anything that goes bump in the night. It's part of functioning in a civilized society, some people will never grasp polite society, and that's unfortunate. Addressing someone in a professional manner, goes a long way.

  7. #36
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    Could you two agree to disagree or take it to PM's? Its starting to sound like those Facebook fights that my 14 yr old niece tells me about.....
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    Is his wife a police officer? If not, she isn't justified to enforce that law. My intention isn't to cause trouble but, consider that situation did go south and the OP shot the guy. When it boils down to it, that whole situation could have been avoided by the wife keeping her horn closed. Someone is dead because someone else believes they can play neighborhood police. If she feels she needs to enforce the laws, then she needs to carry a badge.
    You overlook the fact that the whole situation could have been avoided by the person not playing loud music with profanities. Don't skip to step two of the equation. To place blame on the person who speaks up means you condone a certain segment of the population being rude by exercising their 1A rights in a disruptive manner.

    If I am going around calling folks names, screaming profanities in a public place, and being generally disruptive, hey I am just exercising my 1A right, good for me. Enjoy it or leave the area.

    Based on the scenario the person playing loud music is definately the one at fault. They presented a deadly weapon in response to words they didn't like. Had the response of the music player been to tell the wife to pound sand it would be different scenario altogether, but that isn't what the OP laid out for us.
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  9. #38
    Member Array Miketrance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    You overlook the fact that the whole situation could have been avoided by the person not playing loud music with profanities. Don't skip to step two of the equation. To place blame on the person who speaks up means you condone a certain segment of the population being rude by exercising their 1A rights in a disruptive manner.

    If I am going around calling folks names, screaming profanities in a public place, and being generally disruptive, hey I am just exercising my 1A right, good for me. Enjoy it or leave the area.

    Based on the scenario the person playing loud music is definately the one at fault. They presented a deadly weapon in response to words they didn't like. Had the response of the music player been to tell the wife to pound sand it would be different scenario altogether, but that isn't what the OP laid out for us.
    Well if we're going with what the OP said, then it was just music not them yelling in a profane manner as well. And what's the definition of loud, or obsecene? This changes with every generation, and is subjective at best. The point is the person playing the music walk up to her car and blast it through the window. She took it upon herself to start the confrontation not the music player. I wholeheartedly agree that pulling a knife isn't an acceptable response to being cursed at. I also agree that the OP would be justified in shooting them, and I would do the same.

    The fact of the matter is if she approached the people SHE viewed as being rude in a polite manner or not at all, the music player wouldn't have pulled the knife more than likely. Music will be offensive to some and perfectly acceptable to others. Who has the right to determine what is acceptable music and what isn't? I wouldn't be suprised if the DA didn't levy charges against the wife for instigating the incident that lead to the man's death. She could be charged with anything up to involuntary manslaughter. I think she isn't blameless in this senario. Nothing changes the fact that she walked up to the man's car, and started trouble.

    Offensive behavior is subjective. I doubt she had a decibel meter to measure the volume of the person's music to determine if it was too loud. What if I was also there and the music didn't offend me? Playing music doesn't give someone the right to go up and cuss someone out.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    Is his wife a police officer? If not, she isn't justified to enforce that law. My intention isn't to cause trouble but, consider that situation did go south and the OP shot the guy. When it boils down to it, that whole situation could have been avoided by the wife keeping her horn closed. Someone is dead because someone else believes they can play neighborhood police. If she feels she needs to enforce the laws, then she needs to carry a badge.

    We all need to be a bit more tolerant of others. Is someone playing loud music in a public place annoying, and possible offensive to others, sure. Is it reason to start a confrontation over, no. If it was that offensive it should have been reported to the authorities, not taken into your own hands. Now, if you are 100% confident that you can approach the situation in a calm and respectful manner, go ahead and say something, but be POLITE. I don't mean to bother you sir but could you please turn the music down, it's bothering my children. Something like that isn't going to prompt anyone to come out with a knife. If the guy tells her to go (you know what), then she can walk away and call the police with a clear conscience.

    Living in a social setting, you're bound to run into someone that offends you in some way. You should do your best to let it roll off your back first. I doubt they were listening to that music with the intention of upsetting her. Then if you cannot, ask politely for the to stop. If they do not, and it's illegal, get the authorities involved. One rude action doesn't prompt another, and judging by the OP's description his wife wasn't as polite about it as she could have been.

    There's no reason to speak rudely to ANYONE. This thread touches a soft spot with me, and again i'm not trying to start trouble. Two wrongs don't make a right, and we're all dealing with life and death consequences. I doubt the OP wants to look the kids mother in the eye and tell her that her son is dead because of a few curse words.
    Actually, someone is dead because they attacked a woman with a knife. Let's not let philosophy and theorem overshadow reality.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    I completely agree with you. We don't know exactly how the argument would progress though. It could start with a few strong words, then he replies in kind. Before you know it, she shoves him or strikes his car or something and bam he has a knife. Or the guy is just crazy, but it still all started with her mouth. People can be crazy, unpredictable creatures which is exactly why we're all here. Opening up your mouth unnecessarily is just the first step on a tall ladder that leads to the shooting. We all CC to protect ourselves from bad guys, which is great, we should also make sure we stay under their radar as much as possible first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    Obviously since this is a concealed carry forum, most people on here are proponents of the amendment rights we were all granted by our forefathers. You can't pick and choose who gets the rights afforded by the constitution and when someone's free speech bothers you complain about it. I would have told your wife to pound sand. If the music was loud enough to violate noise ordinance, call the cops and let them do their job. You wife isn't a police officer and has no right to enforce the law.

    Some people aren't offended by language. That's what makes this country so great, we can have a difference of opinion and still have the same rights. If you disagree with certain words being used, don't use them and leave when they bother you in a public place. Your wife must be living in a dream world to think your kids will never hear that kind of language. It's your job as a parent to raise your kids in the manner you deem most appropriate but, not your job to police the world.

    I'm sure you would feel great about having to kill a kid listening to loud music because your own wife couldn't keep her mouth closed. Courtesy goes both ways IMO.
    A Supreme Court ruling (Chaplinsky v. State of New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942)) created a narrow category of speech—“fighting words”— not covered by the First Amendment. Fighting words, by their very utterance inflict injury, or incite an immediate breach of the peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    We all need to be a bit more tolerant of others. Is someone playing loud music in a public place annoying, and possible offensive to others, sure. Is it reason to start a confrontation over, no. If it was that offensive it should have been reported to the authorities, not taken into your own hands. Now, if you are 100% confident that you can approach the situation in a calm and respectful manner, go ahead and say something, but be POLITE. I don't mean to bother you sir but could you please turn the music down, it's bothering my children. Something like that isn't going to prompt anyone to come out with a knife. If the guy tells her to go (you know what), then she can walk away and call the police with a clear conscience.

    Living in a social setting, you're bound to run into someone that offends you in some way. You should do your best to let it roll off your back first. I doubt they were listening to that music with the intention of upsetting her. Then if you cannot, ask politely for the to stop. If they do not, and it's illegal, get the authorities involved. One rude action doesn't prompt another, and judging by the OP's description his wife wasn't as polite about it as she could have been.

    There's no reason to speak rudely to ANYONE. This thread touches a soft spot with me, and again i'm not trying to start trouble. Two wrongs don't make a right, and we're all dealing with life and death consequences. I doubt the OP wants to look the kids mother in the eye and tell her that her son is dead because of a few curse words.
    Miketrance has a point: one catches more flies with honey. Virginia Disorderly Conduct Laws prohbit engaging in conduct having a tendency to cause acts of violence by the person(s) at whom the conduct is directed, and doing so in a public place. Use of fighting words in VA exposes one to a charge of Disorderly Conduct and, arguably, assigns to the person the role of "instigator" who actually causes a fight.
    I do not bother with polity when my life or limb is under threat, or, to the point of the OP, when the life or limb of a loved one or one with whom I am intimately familiar is, but the best course is to refrain from arousing anger when notifying a fellow citizen that his behavior is offensive.
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    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Actually, someone is dead because they attacked a woman with a knife. Let's not let philosophy and theorem overshadow reality.
    I'm not trying to sound rude or condescending, so please don't take this as such. Isn't this section of the forum for philosophy and theorem? I'm new to the forum which I'm sure you could tell by my post count and I assumed this section is reserved for theory? I know I'm taking semantics to a whole new level with my posts but, all I wanted to iterate was the whole mock scenario could be avoided with a little common courtesy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    A Supreme Court ruling (Chaplinsky v. State of New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942)) created a narrow category of speech—“fighting words”— not covered by the First Amendment. Fighting words, by their very utterance inflict injury, or incite an immediate breach of the peace.



    Miketrance has a point: one catches more flies with honey. Virginia Disorderly Conduct Laws prohbit engaging in conduct having a tendency to cause acts of violence by the person(s) at whom the conduct is directed, and doing so in a public place. Use of fighting words in VA exposes one to a charge of Disorderly Conduct and, arguably, assigns to the person the role of "instigator" who actually causes a fight.
    I do not bother with polity when my life or limb is under threat, or, to the point of the OP, when the life or limb of a loved one or one with whom I am intimately familiar is, but the best course is to refrain from arousing anger when notifying a fellow citizen that his behavior is offensive.
    This is interesting. Reading that ruling with limited legal understanding, I would draw the conclusion that the so called fighting words have to be said from one person to another. So music with profanity wouldn't be covered but, going up to someone and cursing them out would. If this is the case, that gets the wife into a situation as far as legality is concerned.

  14. #43
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    I learnt a new word, polity. But it didn't mean what I thunk it did!

    It's been said that one's right to swing his fists ends just short of another's nose.

    Seems that if you civilly informed the offending party of his encroachment upon your rights to peace and quiet, it should be met with a similarly civil response. In this case, a reduction in the offending volume.

    Failing that, he brings a knife to gunfight, his loss.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #44
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    Free Speech, aka 1A, covers playing a radio loudly but doesn't protect confronting and offending to the point of inciting violence (read the SCOTUS ruling on Chaplinsky v. State of New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942) for the prime example). People may discriminate about the lyrics from a loud radio while, in their talking trash to the radio player, expect protection by slipping through 1A cracks that SCOTUS closed in 1942. The OP may do well to appraise his wife of VA's Disorderly Conduct laws.
    Going back almost as far, block-busting, frame-mounted woofers shake this 1958 steel and cement building to its earthquake-rocking foundation, but what can you say?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    I'm not trying to sound rude or condescending, so please don't take this as such. Isn't this section of the forum for philosophy and theorem? I'm new to the forum which I'm sure you could tell by my post count and I assumed this section is reserved for theory? I know I'm taking semantics to a whole new level with my posts but, all I wanted to iterate was the whole mock scenario could be avoided with a little common courtesy.
    Of course the mock scenario could have been avoided with some common courtesy. But here's the thing... In real life, you can't control what other people are going to say.

    People react to things without thinking. People blurt things out of their mouth, and as they are saying it, they are already thinking "I shouldn't have said that."

    There's no point in playing what would have happened if my wife didn't say anything.

    The whole point of the scenario is that your loved one said something inflammatory and now the "genie is out of the bottle" and there's no stuffing it back in.

    To deal with it in any other way is not dealing with the scenario as it is stated. You can't say, "Oh, my wife wouldn't say/or do that!"

    The way I deal with it is, if someone is approaching me or my wife with a deadly weapon... in a threatening manner, they are going to get shot.
    JD likes this.
    -Bark'n
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