Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question.

This is a discussion on Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So most self defense laws generally say that an instigator cannot claim self defense. Lets say your loved one instigated a confrontation, for example, rudely ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 60
Like Tree53Likes

Thread: Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA
    Posts
    5,134

    Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question.

    So most self defense laws generally say that an instigator cannot claim self defense.

    Lets say your loved one instigated a confrontation, for example, rudely confronted the driver of a car in a parking lot who is blaring a profanity laced song for the kids in your car to hear. Instead of turning down the music, the driver jumps out of the car and comes at your loved one with a knife.

    Clearly being rude doesn't call for being cut or stabbed, but technically your loved one is the instigator, so technically you can't legally defend. But lets be real, you're not going to let this happen, right? So you step up, confront, and unfortunately end up shooting the guy. In front of independent witnesses.

    What will be your fate?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    JD
    JD is offline
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,233
    I'm good


    704.6 When defense not available.
    The defense of justification is not available to the following:
    1. One who is participating in a forcible felony, or riot, or a duel.
    2. One who initially provokes the use of force against oneself, with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict injury on the assailant.
    3. One who initially provokes the use of force against oneself by one's unlawful acts, unless:
    a. Such force is grossly disproportionate to the provocation, and is so great that the person reasonably believes that the person is in imminent danger of death or serious injury or
    b. The person withdraws from physical contact with the other and indicates clearly to the other that the person desires to terminate the conflict but the other continues or resumes the use of force.

    [C79, 81, 704.6]
    704.3 Defense of self or another.
    A person is justified in the use of reasonable force when the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend oneself or another from any imminent use of unlawful force.
    [C51, 2773 – 2775; R60, 4442 – 4444; C73, 4112 – 4114; C97, 5102 – 5104; C24, 27, 31, 35, 39, 12921 – 12923; C46, 50, 54, 58, 62, 66, 71, 73, 75, 77, 691.1, 691.2(1), 691.3; C79, 81, 704.3]

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Somebody tells you to turn down a song so you attack them with a knife,they would realize how big a mistake they made when holes start appearing in their shirt
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  5. #4
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fayetteville, AR
    Posts
    13,687
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    So most self defense laws generally say that an instigator cannot claim self defense.

    Lets say your loved one instigated a confrontation, for example, rudely confronted the driver of a car in a parking lot who is blaring a profanity laced song for the kids in your car to hear. Instead of turning down the music, the driver jumps out of the car and comes at your loved one with a knife.

    Clearly being rude doesn't call for being cut or stabbed, but technically your loved one is the instigator, so technically you can't legally defend. But lets be real, you're not going to let this happen, right? So you step up, confront, and unfortunately end up shooting the guy. In front of independent witnesses.

    What will be your fate?
    Have you ever read any of Ayoob's books? Understanding escalation, disparity of force, etc? Deadly force (in many instances now) is deemed appropriate when life is threatened. Confrontations evolve or dissolve. Human nature is something I seldom want to put money on and risk loosing on a bet. Bottom line....it isn't a fist fight and who started the confrontation nor who threw the first punch. It's who comes out of a bad situation alive no matter what transpired and how it got out of hand. Check your local and state laws. Nobody who ends up dead need worry about such things.
    Yankeejib and Bkrazy like this.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,773
    Verbal comments are not necessarily instigating a confrontation.

    Texas statutes specifically state that one can not claim self defense to a verbal provocation alone. So in your scenario, the fellow that gets out with the knife in hand isn't trying to defend himself. He is the attacker, and anyone who was protecting the person he was going for with the knife would be perfectly justified in using deadly force to stop the attack and be covered under self defense or defense of another.

    Just because we choose to strap on a gun each morning does not mean that we have to walk blind and tight lipped through life afterwards. If people don't call out folks who are acting generally like fools, they need to be told so.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
    Texas Hunter Education Instructor
    NRA Instructor

  7. #6
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,279
    I operate on the premise of don't start none, and there won't be none. If you want to read someone's pedigree over a parking place, suit yourself.
    mr.stuart likes this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  8. #7
    JD
    JD is offline
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    19,233
    OK guys, cut the crap about the handi-cap spaces...


    This is the topic of the thread:

    Your loved one instigates a confrontation, now they're under attack! Legal question.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florence, SC
    Posts
    7,967
    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I'm good
    I believe that in "most" states the "I'm Good" would be correct. It boils down to KNOWING THE LAWS OF SELF DEFENSE in your state or those states you plan to be traveling/carrying in. I'm with JD, I'm Good!!!! JMO
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  10. #9
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,487
    My wife has a mouth on her. Her Dad refers to her as "The Mouth Of The South".

    She also wouldn't hurt a fly, nor has any idea how to defend herself. The thought of even pausing to ponder the ramifications of defending her, should someone present her with lethal force is ludicrous to me. Seriously? Hesitate to come to the aid of your wife when her life is in danger?

    I have a bag of non-lethal tricks up my sleeve as well. Shooting is my last resort, but I know when it's time.

    Let her get her butt chewed? Sure, she has it coming sometimes. Hesitate to protect her in a lethal situation? Not on my life. My fate will be in someone else's hands.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    746
    Wouldn't introducing the weapon into the situation elevate it from verbal to physical and thereby "instigating" a new confrontation?

    i.e. Loved one instigated confrontation #1, verbal; BG instigated confrontation #2, physical.

    Ark. law states something similar to what JD said so guess I'd be ok too.
    "Death is lighter than a feather, but Duty is heavier than a mountain" Robert Jordan
    USMC veteran
    Glock 19 Gen 4
    Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,071
    Not necessarily a new confrontation, per se. But introducing a weapon or physical violence of any kind is going to be viewed legally as an unwarranted and unnecessary escalation up the use of force ladder.
    My blog

    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

  13. #12
    Member Array W9HDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Wausau, WI
    Posts
    228
    I would consider the person that your (or my) wife yelled at getting out of the car and pulling a knife while advancing towards your (my) wife an escalation that makes him the aggressor. If her were to just flip her off and yell back, I would just guide my family away from the situation, but in your scenario he doesn't and instead escalates it to the (in my mind,) extreme. Yes your wife "started it," but he intended to illegally use disproportionate force in response to her comment. It would be the same as a couple of guys beating up on you when you interrupt them breaking into your car as far as I'm concerned. Yes I agree that non-leathal options should be used first but if they are not available or don't work, then I would say by all means you're allowed to draw, and if necessary fire.

    As a husband I have to say I would do everything in my power to protect my wife (and most likely kids, because when we're together, they're in tow) which means putting myself in between the guy with the knife and her (and instructing her to call 911,) and doing everything I could to deescalate the situation before I start to respond in kind. Depending on how fast the knife wielder is moving towards me that may reduce the number of things I can do before I bring the ultimate escalation into the fray and start putting .45 caliber holes into his chest if he doesn't immediately stop and obey my commands of "put the knife down and get on the ground."
    Last edited by W9HDG; April 12th, 2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling and clarified a few thoughts

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA
    Posts
    5,134
    OK so my scenario wasn't as muddied as I wanted it to be. A couple weeks ago the music scenario did happen to me. Our car had an electrical issue and wouldn't start and there was very offensive music (loud frequent sexual profanities) coming from 10 feet away. My wife marched over and demanded the driver shut it off because we had kids in the car. He did and all was well. I'm torn between "standing up for what's right" and "avoiding confrontation at all costs." There are of course pros and cons to both philosophies. I usually defer, but my wife not so much. Heh once I and a close friend get confronted by a total stranger in the street who was high or deranged. His comment: "I'll fight him!" But that's a different scenario and has already been discussed elsewhere.

    Let's say that a different, more complicated scenario unfolds, where by whatever statute you would be in violation of the law by defending your loved one. Nothing extreme, they just made a bad choice in the heat of the moment, say some sort of mutual combat happens and they are getting beat pretty bad to the point of "serious bodily injury," (my wife has several serious medical issues that preclude her from fairing well in a fight, further complicating the issue is that she is usually armed) and now you are faced with violating the law to defend them, or watch them be seriously injured or killed. Unless they're unconscious or balled up on the ground, they are still a combatant. Even then the dominant party may be so focused on the battle that they have tunnel vision and don't hear or see you.

    Given that, how do you think you'd fare with the cops and courts? Would such extenuating circumstances help your defense or would the "defending a loved one" defense fall on deaf ears if you are technically in violation of your SD laws? Realistically, no one is going to expect you to let it happen, bu the law is after all, the law.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  15. #14
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,279
    I would suggest having a chat with your wife about her mouth writing checks you are going to have to cash.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  16. #15
    Ex Member Array pir8fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Mooresville, NC
    Posts
    373
    In NC, if you have a chance to leave the confrontation but, instead, escalate it, then you've become the aggressor and if it's a deadly situation, I'll put a bunch of holes in you and deal with any legal issues later.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

how is the instigator allowed to claim self defense
,
if a person instigates a confrontation can he claim self defense if he kills him
,
instigate self defense
,

instigating confrontation

,
instigator claims self defense
,
is it against the law to instigate a fight
,
rules of self defense not instigating
,
self defense instigation
,
self defense instigator
,
texas law instigating a fight
,
texas law of self-defense provocation escalation
,
wife instigates fight
Click on a term to search for related topics.