Elevator Nightmare

This is a discussion on Elevator Nightmare within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ELCruisr Helpless, you'd better read that book I mentioned in your intro. I am really not seeing what would be wrong with ...

View Poll Results: In scenario, I will:

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  • use gun

    76 39.38%
  • use taser

    9 4.66%
  • use batton/kubotan/etc

    10 5.18%
  • use pepper spray

    13 6.74%
  • use knife

    43 22.28%
  • go mano-a-mano(hand-to-hand)

    59 30.57%
  • other

    28 14.51%
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Thread: Elevator Nightmare

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Helpless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    Helpless, you'd better read that book I mentioned in your intro.
    I am really not seeing what would be wrong with the action I would takeas stated above. Maybe you mean "my hand on my gun" I ment, "ready and alert. Ready to draw my weapon.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    "Drunk", and size were the operative points for me. I voted H2H- again, because you need space. A violent drunk is going to be used to absorbing a ******* lot of punishment, so this is not the time for Uber-compliance, pain-point stuff. Break bones and beat down. I like my Glock, but steel has polymer beat, all kinds of handsdown, here. A good pistolwhipping can have a calming effect.

  4. #18
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    Considering I'm around 100 pounds soaking wet, have a fused spine, one punch for the big guy would most likely knock me senseless or even kill me, and there are some weapons listed I don't carry, that eliminates: mano-a-mano, taser, baton and pepper spray (and even if I did have one, I'm not spraying in an elevator and end up hosing myself down!).

    I said "knife" in the throat or eyes because I do not know where my significant other is in the elevator.

    "Gun" would also be an option, if I could shoot the guy without risking penetrating through him and then my SO. Maybe one up the chin would work, but that's easier said than done.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helpless View Post
    I am really not seeing what would be wrong with the action I would takeas stated above. Maybe you mean "my hand on my gun" I ment, "ready and alert. Ready to draw my weapon.
    There are several issues to worry about. Yes, placing your hand on your gun just because a drunk enters an elevator would be an offence but then you clarified what you meant.

    Next you have stated elsewhere that you are not a small guy. Just because a belligerant drunk is trying to pick a fight and punch you does not give you the right to shoot him in the state of FL. If in the eyes of the DA, police, judge and 12 people not clever enough to avoid jury duty, his attack would only have left you bruised and with a bloody nose you will spend the bulk of your adult life in jail. A small statured person, woman or "older person" might stand a better chance of defending their actions.

    The reason I tout that particular book is it is written by a lawyer who defends cases like this for a living. It is used by many police departments to train their officers on the subject and is updated yearly. In it he explains the grey areas, unresolved issues and actual legal meanings of the wording of the new expanded castle doctrines here. Also things you might do which could result in you finding yourself a poster child for what can go wrong in a "test case" as they sort out the new laws meaning. Just what the words "imminent threat" mean to a judge, DA and ultimately a jury are an eye opener. I know of no one who has read this book that hasn't said "Wow, that sure changes some of my ideas!"

    As the author of the book warns, he has heard judges tell a guy who thought he had defended himself legally, "I'm sorry but while I don't agree with this you are guilty under the existing laws and under the mandatory sentancing guidelines you have 20 years incarceration ahead of you."

    I never want to face that and have done my best to educate myself on the legal realities I face, including this book and time with two lawyers. It's been a real eye opener. Do yourself and family a huge favor and do the same! I'm not trying to pick on you but some of the free advice you will get on the internet is worth everything you paid for it! CCW classes often barely touch the whole subject. We operate in a very narrow set of rules to be legal, criminals don't have this problem. It sucks but it is reality.
    Last edited by ELCruisr; September 5th, 2006 at 12:52 PM.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array Helpless's Avatar
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    Yes I see what you are saying! spending time on forums like this is so not a waste of time. I do throw a mean punch and hit my bag daily. Since I have gotten my weapon and holster I have practiced a bit (unloaded of course) hitting the bag with my gun on.

    Plan A would always be to avoid such a situation
    Plan B would be to try to talk it down
    Plan C would be to fight off the attack

    If another weapon comes out or the guy smashed my girl in the head with a bottle or something

    I would have to go to plan D
    If I end up in jail after that, then so be it.

    Thanks for the heads up ELCruisr, I am out to my gunshop to pick up that book.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    As the author of the book warns, he has heard judges tell a guy who thought he had defended himself legally, "I'm sorry but while I don't agree with this you are guilty under the existing laws and under the mandatory sentancing guidelines you have 20 years incarceration ahead of you."
    Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Yes, but don't get so enraptured with legality that you get dead. That's hard to recover from. I would agree that, especially on carry forums, every problem becomes a proverbial nail, and you only have a hammer. OTOH, having dealt with agressive drunks, this would have to be ended quickly and decisively. If your SO isn't involved in the application of force, you're going to have to escalate beyond the "verbal/OC/pocket stick/then pistol"- otherwise you will be very "jacked up", optimistically speaking.

    If one was in an NPE, perhaps one would evaluate the elevator maintenance hatch, after "dealing with the problem"........

  8. #22
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Because of a foot problem I have taken to wearing Bates Tactical footwear with good hard soles, so my response would be a knee to the groin, heel to the top of his foot, knee to the groin again with a head butt and push off to gain some space. Then, either index and middle fingers in the eyes or knuckle punch to the adams apple followed by side kick to the knee.

    The SO is there, what is going to happen to her once I'm knocked out and she is left alone, in a closed elevator car with a violent drunk???? I would say that is reasonable fear of serious injury to another: if I can't fight him off; then I'm going to shoot.

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array Helpless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Yes, but don't get so enraptured with legality that you get dead. That's hard to recover from
    I agree totally, You have to always have the the thought of what will happen to you after it goes down, but we are animals. Survival is #1

    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    The SO is there, what is going to happen to her once I'm knocked out and she is left alone, in a closed elevator car with a violent drunk???? I would say that is reasonable fear of serious injury to another: if I can't fight him off; then I'm going to shoot.
    I tell my girl I will protect her, and I intend to do so. I am sure she would rathe me do some time then end up dead and her a injured or worse.

  10. #24
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    I carry two large pocket knives...one in each front pocket. The knives are "Cold Steel" 5 1/4 inche "Voyagers" with pocket clips. I always have one hand, usually my left in my pocket. If this scenario happened too quickly for me to get off the elevator with wife (or myself if alone) I would take the BG's throat grab, duck my chin and tighten my throat muscles. If BG is drunk he might not have got a good solid grip on my larnx---but whatever happens I would take the blow from his upraised hand. I am 6'7" inches tall and weigh 300lbs with fair to middlin' physical conditioning for being 56 yrs old. I am a Chief Law enforcement Officer in my county(elected). While the BG is punching on me and trying to choke me I will be cutting down to the bone on his choking hand forearm. Conditions permitting and requiring I will then start on the same arm but up past the elbow. Unless this guy is superman he will let go because his arm will not be functioning very well--if at all. I have personal experiences at using a knife close up and walking away. If he just grabbed me and did not immeadiately strike me I would beg for mercy and try and reason with him...but if it all happened in the blink of an eye then I would react within the best of my abilities. Clenching your throat muscles will definetly leave marks and bruising plus the blow(s) to the face all establish deadly intent on the BGs part. Knives are quiet, never need reloading and do not hurt bystanders when the combatants are toe to toe. IMHO one should practice as much with their favored edge instrument as much as the firearms and CQBT's. It has been my sorry experience that my size allows me to take some physical punishment that others might not. I do not reccommend taking any type of a beating if it can be avoided. I say this as a Peace Officer and citizen that the best fight is the one avoided. Killing someone will always remain part of you----even if done in times of war, law enfocement or self defense. Sometimes doing "unpleasent things" is part of contining life. I personally avoid folks who have killed and do not expressed any remorse about it---regardless of how much the person(s) deserved to die. These forums are great!! Failing to talk, plan and/or practice deadly force scenarios leads to one hesitating; which leads to injury or death.....There is also the unpleasant fact that sometimes the GG doesn't make it. May GOD bless us all and our days be of family, joy and peace. Oh almost forgot... as soon as the BG releases my throat and stops struggling I will start first aid to try and save his sorry butt....chances are he will bleed out but with the throat and facial bruising and trying to help him it should be a "No Bill" Grand Jury.

  11. #25
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    force for force you can not shoot someone because you don't want to get hit without extenduation circumstances (head punch will cause death do to existing medical problem). If he is drunk that tips the scales in your favor as his reaction time and stability are not top notch. Now I do not believe that any law abiding citizen should have to deal with this in the first place but any escilation beyond = force and you could be charged depending on the state.

  12. #26
    Ex Member Array Ghost Who Walks's Avatar
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    Wow, what a, ‘killer scenario’! I try not to answer these questions; but, once in awhile, I’ll make an exception. My solution? Thumbs in the eyes – hard!

    Left knee in the gut, (Repeat if necessary) left hand under his left armpit, push him aside at a 3/4 angle with both arms until your weapon is clear. The next move is optional.

    I learned many years ago NOT to make physical contact with someone who knows what he’s doing; and, trying to actually hold onto another person like this is just plain stupid. You’re going to get hurt! Within a highly confined space: the eyes, wrists, elbows, and digits - especially thumbs - are all preeminent targets. (You won't be able to get to the knees; and, a successful arch stomp is questionable.)

    Some things remain constant: If he’s not quite ready, or hesitates, instantly hit him hard! If he goes high, attack low; if he goes low, attack high. If you can’t avoid or redirect the attack by, 'spinning' then jump on him just like a, ‘monkey climbing a tree’! (Got good teeth?)

    This is the way things were before I was born; this is, also, the way things will be after I’m gone. If the BG launches a CQ knife attack within such a confined space, well then, I have no illusions about the outcome: He’s got me! Life is over; but, I won’t be going to Hell, alone; and, he’s the one who’s going to be carrying the bags for me!

    (Good reason to have a front left pocket BUG – Isn’t it!)







    This thread points out a vital prerequisite to all antagonistic CQB: An immediate willingness on your part to, quite literally, ‘hate your enemy to death’. Not everyone is able to do that! This sort of highly pragmatic martial mentality is NOT taught in today’s military institutes; nor, is it encouraged by modern socialistic, ‘rules-of-engagement’ warfare.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Yes, but don't get so enraptured with legality that you get dead. That's hard to recover from. I would agree that, especially on carry forums, every problem becomes a proverbial nail, and you only have a hammer. OTOH, having dealt with agressive drunks, this would have to be ended quickly and decisively. If your SO isn't involved in the application of force, you're going to have to escalate beyond the "verbal/OC/pocket stick/then pistol"- otherwise you will be very "jacked up", optimistically speaking.

    If one was in an NPE, perhaps one would evaluate the elevator maintenance hatch, after "dealing with the problem"........
    First off very very few people are killed by a blow from a drunk. Quite frankly unless there are mitigating circumstances this situation can be dealt with by a knowledgable person in average condition. We DO need to be VERY aware of the legal fallout of our actions ahead of time. These will usually dictate the options available to us or then everything the anti crowd says about us will be proven true. Self defense is far more then pulling a pistol and blazing away. There are several verbal de-escalation tactics as well as unarmed responses and yes I have dealt with hostile drunks many times in the past. I managed to de-escalate the situation and walk away to report them to LE. This includes a few wonderful encounters in the third world where there is no real LE. If we are going to be serious about self defense we need to know ALL of the options that are open to us and have the judgement of how to apply the BEST solution at a moments notice. These options are highly variable depending on sex, physique, handicaps, location, proximity of innocent bystanders, etc.

    A tactic that can buy you time and is effective is to act terrified and apologetic. It will usually feed their ego and calm things down for the time you need to prepare a better response even if that is drawing a weapon, if called for. It's non-macho and dosn't feed our ego but the idea is to SURVIVE the encounter, not prove how dangerous we are. It may even de-escalate until the door opens and we can leave and call in the cavalry. I have used this on the street and got the space I needed to be ready for a better unarmed defense in pre CCW days. My sudden transformation from a terrified, ego feeding victim, to a stanced aggressive defender ended the situation. Drunks don't process quick changes well.

    In the cited situation with one hand on you and one cocked back will not leave you time to draw a concealed weapon without a severe blow from him. Now thouroughly angered he is going to be able to take your weapon and do very bad things if he desires.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    This is why I avoid elevators (of course I tell everyone I avoid them becauuse walking up the stairs is good exercise).


    Draw gun.
    Point at torso of assailant.
    Pull trigger repeatedly until empty.
    Wet pants.

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array Helpless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zundfolge View Post
    This is why I avoid elevators (of course I tell everyone I avoid them becauuse walking up the stairs is good exercise).


    Draw gun.
    Point at torso of assailant.
    Pull trigger repeatedly until empty.
    Wet pants.
    I read this and laughed thinking it was a little harsh, then I reread the situation. Jumps at you and grabs your neck. Big guy he would have about 35-40 pounds on me. Drunk or not this guy has me in a life threatening position. I figure this is what the CCW is for right?

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Most of the martial artists I ever trained with would love this situation. We learned all these self defense moves predicated on someone grabbing you, and almost no one ever does something that stupid. If I didn't have my hand in my pocket on my knife, I'm sure training would take over and he would most likely have a broken arm and various contusions. If my hand were on the knife and ready, he's going to the hospital for surgery on knife wounds to that arm that's holding me. I'm sure I'd put a tourniquet on his arm afterwards.

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