Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules?

This is a discussion on Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would say that it depends on what the criminal is doing at the time. There are a lot of things that could make me ...

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Thread: Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I would say that it depends on what the criminal is doing at the time. There are a lot of things that could make me think they would still be an imminent threat, making the answer of yes, I am willing to destroy him. If he is still holding or is near enough to grab something that could be used as a weapon, or has hands hidden, or is even moving/twitching in a manner that indicates he might snap/attack. Or, even if he is perfectly still, but you can see in his eyes that he has not surrendered or given up, but is waiting for an opportunity to attack, I will most definitly be keeping the gun pointed at him.

    I would say if they are cooperating and no longer suspicious, and this is the most important part, I am able to be a safe enough distance away that I know I could reaquire the target before he got to me, then I would shift to a low ready hold. In my house, several of the rooms would not allow me that safe distance. I will not allow an intruder the oportunity to take my gun away and then harm my family or myself.

    So after the long answer, the short answer is yes, I think pointing a gun at a bad guy is an acceptable "violation" of the safety rules, because I don't think it is a violation in the proper circumstances.
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  3. #17
    Member Array ping.brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miketrance View Post
    We don't need to be engaging anyone unless our life is in danger.
    The same applies to law enforcement.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    kerberos,

    Do you not carry anything for intermediate threats. Either gun/knife, ie deadly weapons, or hand to hand. Gun being a distance weapon usually, but everything else requires you come in contact with the other person. OC/Pepper spray might be a good option to put in your tool bag.

    Being that I am not planning on arresting anyone, I don't really want to come into contact with most folks I think are or could be a threat to me or others. Just food for thought.
    kerberos likes this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ping.brady View Post
    The same applies to law enforcement.
    What if someone else's life is in danger. Don't LEO's get to engage for that?

    Should LEO's or even us have to wait until our life is in danger before we engage? I certainly want to be acting instead of reacting if I see a possible threat emerging.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerberos View Post
    The only criminal activity I plan on stopping with the use of my sidearm is a life-ending attack on my loved ones or myself.

    With a rare exception of another person who I know for sure is being attacked in a manner that would end their life without proper cause.

    If it's bad enough for me to draw, there will be no time for the aggressor to give up, shots will be fired immediately.

    Everything else is either hand to hand or knife/flashlight work.

    Is my thinking wrong on this?

    ... I'm here to learn.
    Not to say that you are wrong, just something to think about. If someone is in your house, they might just be robbing you, so you would not be stopping a life-ending attack at the time, but you can not know their ultimate goal, or what they might do after discovering an occupant. So you could draw and confront the suspect with the intent to prevent them from initiating an attack.

    You say shots will be fired immediately, but you should identify your target before shooting, right? In the process of identifying your target, them might have time to surrender upon realizing the home is occupied. A lot of criminals may be dumb, but not quite dumb enough to engage an armed homeowner who has the drop on them.

    Maybe your situation is unique and you know for certain that noone you know would enter your home for any reason, so all the identification you need is that there is someone there, but I think most people (especially lawyers) would recomend positive ID on an intruder before shooting. And if they want to run away or surrender and save me the emotional/legal/cleanup troubles that come with shooting someone, that is fine with me.
    Walk softly ...

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I have a question and hope this doesn't hijack the thread but it the OP's question got me thinking. I will re read all of NH laws pertaining to it but my question is:A BG is in your house, you catch him and before you shoot he drops his weapon. You tell him to stay there cause the cops are on the way. He decides to bolt. Not toward you but awayfrom the AO. Can you shoot and would you? I beleive in TX you can. But I could not shoot an unarmed person running away.
    If he runs out the nearest door or window I won't shoot, but if he runs to any other part of the house he's getting shot!

    I don't intend on playing hide and seek with some bad guy inside my home whether he dropped his gun or not.
    kerberos, suntzu and barstoolguru like this.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    If he runs out the nearest door or window I won't shoot, but if he runs to any other part of the house he's getting shot! Simple as that.
    Oh, definitely. But if the threat is going out the door I couldn't kill someone over property even if legal. But if there was ANY doubt whatsoever he is toast.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    What if someone else's life is in danger. Don't LEO's get to engage for that?

    Should LEO's or even us have to wait until our life is in danger before we engage? I certainly want to be acting instead of reacting if I see a possible threat emerging.
    Of course LEO should/could protect others who are in danger, but my point is that a gun should not be pointed at another human being unless someone's life is in danger. If you want to be proactive, unholster the weapon and get in a ready stance, but IMO it is irresponsible for a civilian or LEO to actually point a weapon at someone their weapon at someone who is NOT a danger. Look at the video you posted. The guy is on the ground, being detained and from what we can tell "under control" of the officer, when he is unnecessarily and unintentionally shot at by the other cop.

    Consider this. Forbid anyone had to use a gun to save their life, then the cops show up as you holster your weapon and raise your hands. How long would you like one or more loaded guns pointed at you?? Once you are no longer deemed as a threat (cooperating, being detained, disarmed, etc) there is NO reason a loaded gun should be pointed at you.

    If you are acting, instead of reacting... what measures do you have in place to not shoot at other CCW carriers or plain clothes LEOs? As citizens or law enforcement, we are fortunate to be able to carry to defend our lives should we ever have to (other another persons life depending on your role or what state you live in). Unfortunately this is a reactive measure if a threat cannot be avoided.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    kerberos,

    Do you not carry anything for intermediate threats.
    I was thinking a flashlight to the eyes for intermediate...

    But since you mention it, that would have to be followed by either gun, or closing the distance for contact.

    Something I should want to avoid...

    Thanx for the info though, I know that I need reminders that being a 6'2" 225lb former Marine will not always save my behind.

    Too much young'un still in my head.

    At least I recognize it for what it is I guess.
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ping.brady View Post
    Consider this. Forbid anyone had to use a gun to save their life, then the cops show up as you holster your weapon and raise your hands. How long would you like one or more loaded guns pointed at you?? Once you are no longer deemed as a threat (cooperating, being detained, disarmed, etc) there is NO reason a loaded gun should be pointed at you.
    Good point!

    I don't want to be that guy and then a mosquito decides to crash land in one of their eyes causing a momentary twitch that ends my life!
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Something I just saw postulated on an LEO site, unfortunately the article was LOCKED as LEO only.

    But the question is relevant to civilians and LEOs alike. You for whatever reason have a bona fide "suspect" at gunpoint, yet he is not at that moment presenting a clear and credible threat to you. Most agree that your finger should NOT be on the trigger. But should you also "aim away" or keep your aim on target? What should the LEO do?
    OK, here's my thinking:

    Rule 1. All guns are always loaded.

    Yep my EDC is!

    Rule 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

    If he's in my house and poses a threat to me or my family, I am willing to destroy him!

    Rule 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

    OK, we have established that he is a target, so I could put my finger on the trigger, but I would probably keep in indexed on the slide.

    Rule 4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

    Yep before I pull the trigger I want to know where any other people in the house are and if I have a good backstop.

    Now what happens depends on what he does next. If he flees or obeys my command to get on the ground I don't have to shoot. Anything else is a big risk for him.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    if you have made to take your gun out you have perceived a threat to your life.

    many things can happen---
    BG sees your movement and recognizes it for what it is--your going to draw a gun so he may
    shear off or keep coming.

    amazing how in mid step a person may change direction; and if it is away from you than you don't complete the draw.

    if he keeps coming at you or his manor of threat continues, than you draw and point it at him--safety off/finger inside the trigger guard.
    cause you intend to shot to defend your life.

    but he may still move away and thus you put up the gun and call 911 to make a report--to go on record.

    suppose he stands his ground than you are still pointing a gun AT him with finger poised.

    to answer the OP-- yes, point at the danger
    and be top of your game alert and ready to act

    ----------------

    if i am being forced to discharge my gun i do not want the bullet to endanger any but the cause of the situation

    ---and if you can not 100% keep your finger inside the trigger guard...without touching the trigger---
    than you need to practice that.

    its a guard right? its there against accidental release of the trigger...
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerberos View Post
    The only criminal activity I plan on stopping with the use of my sidearm is a life-ending attack on my loved ones or myself.

    With a rare exception of another person who I know for sure is being attacked in a manner that would end their life without proper cause.

    If it's bad enough for me to draw, there will be no time for the aggressor to give up, shots will be fired immediately.

    Everything else is either hand to hand or knife/flashlight work.

    Is my thinking wrong on this?

    ... I'm here to learn.
    I believe you are wrong on this, An example, I have drawn and not fired twice in my lifetime. Both times the threat went away when the gun came out. One time A person, drunk, was coming at me swinging a tire tool. I pulled my weapon and ordered him to stop and drop his weapon. He complied. Are you saying you would not have drawn in my position or that you would have gone ahead and shot him?
    I believe that you would have reacted as I did.

    Michael

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I believe you are wrong on this, An example, I have drawn and not fired twice in my lifetime. Both times the threat went away when the gun came out. One time A person, drunk, was coming at me swinging a tire tool. I pulled my weapon and ordered him to stop and drop his weapon. He complied. Are you saying you would not have drawn in my position or that you would have gone ahead and shot him?
    I believe that you would have reacted as I did.

    Michael
    Thanx for the reply Michael, like I said I'm here to learn.

    For me, a drunk coming at me with a tire iron would not warrant an armed response.

    (I recognize that is not the case for everyone, disparity of force and whatnot. i.e. 2 drunks with clubs=I draw)

    In that case, I would rely on hand to hand to save my skin; but I've faced that type of situation before and escaped unharmed.

    Keep in mind though, I realize I may be over-confident in my h2h abilites and may have to pay a price for it in pain someday.

    But, on the other hand, I'm a little older now and a family man.

    I'm no longer in stupid places doing stupid things to win the proverbial stupid prizes!

    Like many here always say, it's one thing to say what you would do, but quite another when in the actual situation.
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Thanx for the reply Michael, like I said I'm here to learn.

    For me, a drunk coming at me with a tire iron would not warrant an armed response.

    (I recognize that is not the case for everyone, disparity of force and whatnot. i.e. 2 drunks with clubs=I draw)

    In that case, I would rely on hand to hand to save my skin;
    Understood, but I am in a different situation. I am a bit disabled and cannot fight or run. Funny thing is some might say that makes me more of a threat than a healthy person who could run away.

    Michael

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