Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules? - Page 3

Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules?

This is a discussion on Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ping.brady Of course LEO should/could protect others who are in danger, but my point is that a gun should not be pointed ...

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Thread: Is pointing a gun at a BG an acceptable violation of safety rules?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ping.brady View Post
    Of course LEO should/could protect others who are in danger, but my point is that a gun should not be pointed at another human being unless someone's life is in danger. If you want to be proactive, unholster the weapon and get in a ready stance, but IMO it is irresponsible for a civilian or LEO to actually point a weapon at someone their weapon at someone who is NOT a danger. Look at the video you posted. The guy is on the ground, being detained and from what we can tell "under control" of the officer, when he is unnecessarily and unintentionally shot at by the other cop.

    Consider this. Forbid anyone had to use a gun to save their life, then the cops show up as you holster your weapon and raise your hands. How long would you like one or more loaded guns pointed at you?? Once you are no longer deemed as a threat (cooperating, being detained, disarmed, etc) there is NO reason a loaded gun should be pointed at you.

    If you are acting, instead of reacting... what measures do you have in place to not shoot at other CCW carriers or plain clothes LEOs? As citizens or law enforcement, we are fortunate to be able to carry to defend our lives should we ever have to (other another persons life depending on your role or what state you live in). Unfortunately this is a reactive measure if a threat cannot be avoided.
    If I have just used my gun to defend myself and the LEO's show up, I fully expect a gun to be drawn and pointed at me until I am disarmed. The LEO (except possibly the ones I know personally) don't know if I am a good guy or bad guy, all they know is that I have a gun and just shot someone.

    As far as whether or not I am going to point a gun at someone if my life is not in danger, well there are plenty of circumstances that I would As has been stated by others if you are in my home and not supposed to be there, you are a target. This extends to my garage, and even my yard in some cases. You can go ahead and add my office and parking lot to that list. Also you can add my vehicle to the list if you are trying to get into or get me out of it when you aren't supposed to be there. You may not have that much leeway in your state. Everyone should know exactly what is legal for them whereever they are.

    In the video I posted, there would be no discharge of the gun had she not pulled the trigger. Was it a good thing it wasn't pointed at her partner or the guy on the ground, yep.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating being unsafe with firearms. They should never be pointed at something you are not willing to destroy. However if someone does something that causes me to pull my gun, I am absolutely willing to destroy them if I need to. If you are not, don't bother pulling the gun in the first place.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Understood, but I am in a different situation. I am a bit disabled and cannot fight or run. Funny thing is some might say that makes me more of a threat than a healthy person who could run away.

    Michael
    I would agree with that.

    I think it is someones signature on here about being "to old to fight or run, so I'll just shoot you!"
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Perhaps this thread should have been created with a yes/no poll option...

    I don't want to be guilty of

    So to answer the question of OP directly... I vote no.

    Unless you're referring to the half-second of getting on target before pulling the trigger.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerberos View Post
    Thanx for the reply Michael, like I said I'm here to learn.
    For me, a drunk coming at me with a tire iron would not warrant an armed response.
    (I recognize that is not the case for everyone, disparity of force and whatnot. i.e. 2 drunks with clubs=I draw)
    In that case, I would rely on hand to hand to save my skin; but I've faced that type of situation before and escaped unharmed.
    Keep in mind though, I realize I may be over-confident in my h2h abilites and may have to pay a price for it in pain someday.
    But, on the other hand, I'm a little older now and a family man.
    I'm no longer in stupid places doing stupid things to win the proverbial stupid prizes!
    Like many here always say, it's one thing to say what you would do, but quite another when in the actual situation.
    Wait another decade or two and you won't want to fight much any more. It starts to hurt alot more.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #35
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    If someone was a threat and they stop and hold because you have a gun on them, there may be little time to reacquire your target if you are pointing it away from him depending on the distance they are from you. Someone can move very quickly and disarm you or cause you to fire errantly if they get the opportunity. If I have someone in my sights as a threat, they will stay in my sights until they either flee or a LEO shows up. If they were a threat, they may become one again. My finger would be off the trigger in the ready position. But they chose to create the threat, so they are a threat until they either leave on their own accord or are arrested. And I would not fire at a fleeing person. That would get me in trouble.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Wait another decade or two and you won't want to fight much any more. It starts to hurt alot more.
    Already climbing that mountain Sir!

    <--- That's kinda what the avatar is all about.
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  7. #37
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    LEOs are different. If police were only allowed to draw their weapons when presented with deadly force, there would be a lot more dead police officers.
    Ex: a LEO pulls over a car matching the description of a getaway vehicle from an armed robbery (or any other violent felony).

    You had better believe their sidearm will be pulled when they order the driver to exit the vehicle. Even if the driver was unlucky enough to simply be driving a car that LOOKED like a suspects vehicle.

    Drunk swinging a tire iron, deadly force on their part = deadly force on my part.

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Something I just saw postulated on an LEO site, unfortunately the article was LOCKED as LEO only.

    But the question is relevant to civilians and LEOs alike. You for whatever reason have a bona fide "suspect" at gunpoint, yet he is not at that moment presenting a clear and credible threat to you. Most agree that your finger should NOT be on the trigger. But should you also "aim away" or keep your aim on target? What should the LEO do?
    I'm not an LEO, so the only thing I would be pulling my gun at is that which I am about to shoot, for whatever reason. So yes, my gun is pointing directly at the threat, and yes, my finger is on the trigger.
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  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    I will certainly point my weapon at a threat. When it stops being a threat, I stop pointing my weapon at it.

    If a bad guy is running away, I may wave bye-bye. But I'm certainly not going to shoot him.

    If he's still armed and running for cover, I could certainly imagine shooting.

    The trick is recognizing the difference between these two. May God give us wisdom!
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    However if someone does something that causes me to pull my gun, I am absolutely willing to destroy them if I need to. If you are not, don't bother pulling the gun in the first place.
    I think we're saying the same thing, lol

  11. #41
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    Multiple Leo agencies and dogs were in my area several years back, on a manhunt looking for two BGs. I was semi-involved but not searching for them. I accidentally and suddenly came up on these two guys, they'd just came out of the woods away from the active search area and thought they could hitch a ride to get further away.

    I was in a POV, and out of uniform. They were not expecting I would be armed and aware of their predictament. I held both in place with a shotgun, initially pointing it at their faces, finger off the trigger. I needed to intimidate them ASAP, so they would follow my instructions obediently. While they were stretched out on the rural highway, I maintained my position with the shotgun. One of the BGs was antsy and would like to run again, but any glance he made had a glimpse of my gun barrel. When Leo arrived, I maintained my position until they reached the BGs. My gun then went to low ready, and back in the truck as they were cuffed.

    They were a menace to our community and actively wanted. I didn't have any reservations on breaking gun safety rules, in fact quickly putting an end to their escapades made our community safer.

    I don't know if this little story helps answer the OPs question. Like so many scenarios they can all unfold with unpredictable outcomes.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ping.brady View Post
    The same applies to law enforcement.

    NEGATIVE.

    Different standards,different rules. Law Enforcement "engages" people everyday in the performance of their duties.

    Not even remotely the same thing. Anyone with a lick of sense could figure that out.
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  13. #43
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    If I find myself in the position of drawing my weapon on a person the only safety rules I am concerning myself with are positively identifying my target and knowing what is beyond it. But it would be to their benefit to have a deep and thorough understanding of the rest and to behave appropriately.
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerberos View Post

    (I recognize that is not the case for everyone, disparity of force and whatnot. i.e. 2 drunks with clubs=I draw)
    Of course this also brings up more stuff you have to know. Like if you pop one of the club wielding drunks and he goes down, can you shoot the other? No. Once the first guy goes down, the disparity of force is no longer able to be used, now what?

    I highly suggest Mas Ayoobs book, "In the gravest extreme". Knowledge is power.

    And as others have said, if I have drawn my gun (whether I fire or not) I am willing to destroy whatever I have it pointed at, so I am not breaking that rule.

  15. #45
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    If I am facing a big enough threat to warrant me drawing my gun, I sure as heck don't want to be sending the bad guy any ambiguous signals by pointing it anywhere other than center mass.

    Pointing it at the ground or in another direction may send him signals that I am not determined enough to use it.

    Holding someone at gunpoint means exactly what it says. I'm not holding him at ground point. Whether he gets shot or not will be determined by his immediate actions, and I don't want to be giving him the false impression I don't have what it takes to smoke him!
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