Elevator Nightmare 2

This is a discussion on Elevator Nightmare 2 within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Maverick7340 Is just being pushed in the chest a reason to use deadly force? Absolutely not. Not ever. However, that is a ...

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Thread: Elevator Nightmare 2

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    Is just being pushed in the chest a reason to use deadly force?
    Absolutely not. Not ever. However, that is a typical introductory salvo to an attack. Speak with any friends you've had that have survived a violent attack on the street, or any LEO friend who cares to spill some details about the reality of how these things occur.

    A full array of circumstances would be required to legally justify the use of lethal force. Doesn't mean resistance may not be offered before then; that just means that there are standards to be met for the use of lethal force. Imagine: if pushed; if verbally threatened; if all three start crowding back toward the elevator; if the look in their faces can't be taken for anything other than attack;if the person(s) being attacked is (are) injured or disabled that inhibits their ability to resist. All of this plays a role in justifying a response at the appropriate time. The key: determination of that appropriate time. No, it's not the moment the finger touches the shirt. No, it's not even when the words are spoken signifying clear intent. But it's clearly ahead of all three dogpiling on top of the person in the elevator. No law demands one must first be overcome in order to resist.

    I think the relevant yardstick would be any escalation beyond what had already occurred to the degree that (a) the actions/words were consistent with a violent attack and (b) those actions/words were not consistent with anything else. At that point? I'd defend using the degree of force required to stop the attack. No matter the cost to the bad guys. Every time.

    BTW, B. Goetz, by accounts of witnesses, was a tad too fast on the trigger. From what I've read, it appears that he did indeed make the leap from "give me $5" to firing his gun. To say nothing of his words to the one who didn't "have enough, yet." IMO, such quick action is only justifiable if the standards above are met. That can happen very quickly, sure. But they'd damn well better be met, else you can easily find yourself in the crosshairs of a DA's wrath.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array rangerman2003's Avatar
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    well my fiance knows i carry and stays on my weak side as to not "get in the way" so to speak. i would make sure i can either b-line down the hall or while backing into the elevator i would be drawing making sure to not take my eyes off of them... and after the shooting stops i hope that me and her are the only ones standing

  4. #33
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    Oki Doki,
    My husband and I practiced this a LOT before I got my CCW... and this stands mostly true even if I am armed (which is going to be most of the time, anyhow).

    BUT.. I know where he carries.. always... If we are surrounded (or at least cut off) and they put a hand on him or are too close or threatening for him to fire (say they have a knife to him or such), he moves me behind him as though he's protecting me, and my hands on him would be no surprise to a BG as I'm just "clinging to my security" but what they don't know is that I'm drawing his gun. When I have it in my hands, I drop to the floor beside him and start shooting.

    Anyone threatens my husband and he can't defend himself, I'm stepping up to the plate.

    I said it once before, my husband and I are a team, not just in the sense that we are a marital team, we are a tactical team. In my very honest opinion, if a couple is being attacked, MOST likely the BGs pay more attention to the man. They may have ill intentions with the woman, but they won't act on them until they know for sure the man is under control and won't interfere with their fun. While they are paying attention to you, your wife or SO or whatever, should know what to do. It's a likely scenario, not just in an elevator, but in a store, in an ally, getting into a car, even in your own home.

    At least in our relationship we take the word "team" further than just talking about money and kids. A team trains together, a team works together, a team anticipates one another and communicates to one another in all manner of ways. A team prepares for situations together so that they protect one another. Our team is a tactical team and we look out for one another, even if I have to cover his back sometimes.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    I never thought about the alarm button . That was a good idea.
    Yup! +1, we so often overlook an easy answer as I did too on this one.
    ___________________________________
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Ride4TheBrand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I said it once before, my husband and I are a team, not just in the sense that we are a marital team, we are a tactical team.
    Good for you guys!
    "We must remember that one man is much
    the same as another, and that he is best
    who is trained in the severest school."
    ~Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

  7. #36
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    OH MAN. The instant a hand touches my chest I reach around with my left hand and place my thumb in the center of his hand wrapping my fingers around the meaty section of the thumb. Pivoting off the line, his wrist moves in an unnatural direction and may snap the wrist. In any case he drops. I've done this. In Aikido we called the move KOTOGAIESH and I hope I spelled that correctly. Easier to do than spell.

    As I pivot I'm drawing and moving into a retention stance as HELL is about to be unleashed. I might not survive, but I'm virtually certain that my SO is going to get out okay as long as she stays out of the line of fire. I've trained my wife in how to "get small" in just such a situation.

    One thing is certain: The instant hostile contact is made (the hand on the chest) it's WAR. And war is an acronym: WeAreReady. There can be no protests, or half measures. Response has GOT to be explosive and VIOLENT. You're in a near ambush situation and the only remedy is to assault through the attacking element.

    Get in among them so they get in each other's way. You have no such hindrance once your own SO is out of the way. But you have to identify the players. Here's a twist: What if not all of the group are committed to the attack? What if the group is more of a semi-stable affiliation than a cohesive element? What if the "signal" to go criminal is only exchanged among a few and not all are "in the criminal loop?"

    Now what?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #37
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    I personally am not real fond of "tying up" my hands with hand to hand combat. As soon as his hand makes contact, either my boot or knee is making contact with his "jewels" and I am screaming at the top of my lungs (loud noise disorientates, distracts and attracts attention). Step back and draw, the kicked party hopefully is an obstacle to others coming into the elevator, engage first target that presents.
    In elevators my wife stands at the control panel and I am between the door and her, it may not be “gentlemanly” but I exit first. Also many doors operate from only one side now-a-days, usually opening away from the control panel, I will stand so I can see out as soon as there is a crack. She will go for the call button, most don't "make a call" that is what the call box is for, but they do sound an alarm bell. Attracting attention is your friend, BGs like to work anonymously.

  9. #38
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    I can't see where this is anything other than a pre-planned "mugging".
    Thugs do this quite frequently and are depending on your "lack of action" and fear (freezing up) for their success. To me, just their numbers create a substantial disparity of force, especially while trying to protect your wife (and possibly both your lives, more so if they get your gun). In this case you need to create your own "speed, surprise, and violence of action" in order to have a reasonable chance of winning (not surviving, but winning).

    For me, the moment he touches me in said manner, his intent is obvious. There are a lot of "soft targets" in the face and throat area which he just opened up by placing his hand onto your chest, use them, take his air or sight away from him as you simultaneously draw your weapon. While #1 is gasping for air or sight, challenge the other two with your CCW and see if they are still quite as brave, if so, all bets are off an do what is necessary.

    Just remember, these three thugs attacked you and your SO, you were if fear for your life or serious bodily injury, and you were cornered with no retreat possible. Regardless of what "Racial issues" others may try to interject, your first duty is to your wife and yourself. I am not an attorney and this is certainly not legal advice, just my opinion.
    Good Luck
    A Wise Man Changes His Mind, but a Fool Never Does

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I personally am not real fond of "tying up" my hands with hand to hand combat. As soon as his hand makes contact, either my boot or knee is making contact with his "jewels" and I am screaming at the top of my lungs (loud noise disorientates, distracts and attracts attention).
    I fully understand, but when the BG makes contact you are in a single combat situation. Hand to hand. There may not be time for anything else and those jewels are a small moving target.

    For myself, I'm even less fond of lifting my leg from the deck and putting myself waaaaay off balance. It hurts the positioning of my barrel and leaves me unable to shift stances or react otherwise.

    I'm not suggesting going into a protracted fight, but it is extremely possible to completely debilitate the guy closest to you (BG making contact with your chest) and engage the others with gunfire.... but you've got to be able to move.

    I'm sorry I was trained to NOT raise my feet from the deck in that situation. TENKON is the movement technique. Even if you raise the foot and replant it immediately, you're still off balance and out of position. Just my .02.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #40
    kpw
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    In an elevator, left hand is on the BUG, right on my knife. Too much at stake to hesitate with a loved one present. The initiator is going to have some arteries opened. The other 2 have a half second to take off or lay down and wet themselves before getting ventilated. Then I'll hire the best attorney I can find if I have to.

  12. #41
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    I studied Hapkido, I never use the foot or knee the thigh. Hapkido uses many leg moves.

  13. #42
    kpw
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    Just remember, lots of BGs have training, too. In that situation, with a loved one involved, I want training from Hibachi and Dave Sevigny!

  14. #43
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    the talking stops. Out numbered 3 or 4 to one 60 year old will serve as my defense here in Florida!

    I desire to harm no man, but that means I do not want to be touched, shoved, or grabbed, assaulted, or robbed, etc. These actions are hard to sort out...are you going to ask about the intentions?

    There is only one option I have...end the threat!

    One on one, I may give a little...but this stuff is no game! Thinking too late may just be your 'last thought'!

    "I feared for my life, and I thought I was going to die!" I will be glad to talk with you officer, as soon as my lawyer arrives!

    ret
    Ken,

    Assume you, or you and your wife, shot all 3 or 4 of them, and it turned out that they were not armed. To what extent do you think the disparity of force concept will hold up in that case?

    I have often thought of this kind of scenario, being accosted by several young thugs, feeling threatened, but not with a weapon in sight.

    Ron

  15. #44
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    Not Armed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Ken,

    Assume you, or you and your wife, shot all 3 or 4 of them, and it turned out that they were not armed. To what extent do you think the disparity of force concept will hold up in that case?

    I have often thought of this kind of scenario, being accosted by several young thugs, feeling threatened, but not with a weapon in sight.

    Ron
    Ron,

    There are so many variables, but if 4 thugs had no weapon, then they would be backing up when the gun came out...

    I'm assuming that they have already made some kind of threat...just a comment...I can ignore that...threat or block my escape?...now things are a lot more serious!

    I believe that disparity of force is still present by shear numbers...can't a gang of 4 take your weapon?...pound you into the ground?...rape the wife?...

    It's a terrible spot to be in...but so is being dead!

    Florida law states that if I fear for my life in a place I have a right to be, I can use force against force...I know that this is not a clear reason to 'assume' you can use force...again, so many variables.

    I have to assume that 4 dirtbags coming at me are not Morman missionaries...if they ignore the loud command to stay away or perhaps "get back" with some extra adjectives added...now I am going to assume that things are getting into orange...

    If I can walk away...I will...if that opportunity is made unavailable to my wife and I by 4 'unarmed' thugs...I will assume that they are armed. Again, numbers and age count too!

    Certainly is a lot to think about...I'm awfully careful about where I go and what is around me...but one can be surprised!

    Ken
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  16. #45
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Ron,

    There are so many variables, but if 4 thugs had no weapon, then they would be backing up when the gun came out...

    I'm assuming that they have already made some kind of threat...just a comment...I can ignore that...threat or block my escape?...now things are a lot more serious!

    I believe that disparity of force is still present by shear numbers...can't a gang of 4 take your weapon?...pound you into the ground?...rape the wife?...

    It's a terrible spot to be in...but so is being dead!

    Florida law states that if I fear for my life in a place I have a right to be, I can use force against force...I know that this is not a clear reason to 'assume' you can use force...again, so many variables.

    I have to assume that 4 dirtbags coming at me are not Morman missionaries...if they ignore the loud command to stay away or perhaps "get back" with some extra adjectives added...now I am going to assume that things are getting into orange...

    If I can walk away...I will...if that opportunity is made unavailable to my wife and I by 4 'unarmed' thugs...I will assume that they are armed. Again, numbers and age count too!

    Certainly is a lot to think about...I'm awfully careful about where I go and what is around me...but one can be surprised!

    Ken
    Ken,

    I "hear" what you are saying and don't disagree. The nightmare about it is that it is precisely this kind of confrontation that can go south real quickly, and the one that can wind up ultimately ruining ones life. Very scary, and, as you wrote, a good reason to be careful about where you go.

    Ron

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