Falling down training and tactics

Falling down training and tactics

This is a discussion on Falling down training and tactics within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not the (excellent) movie How do you train for scenarios where you get knocked down or trip? I am not talking about weapon in holster ...

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Thread: Falling down training and tactics

  1. #1
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    Falling down training and tactics

    Not the (excellent) movie

    How do you train for scenarios where you get knocked down or trip?

    I am not talking about weapon in holster I am talking about during draw or drawn and moving

    I suspect there is no easier way to violate gun safety rules than to try to retain hold while falling. You aren't going to overcome the reflex to Spread your hand and shield your head

    So sounds like a reasonable way to self inflict a wound

    If you drop the gun going down you will be giving your weapon up to any standIng threat

    I'm assuming the correct thing to do is throw fall hoping the tossed gun will be hard to find and use against you and either transition to backuP or run like mad

    This seems like a very common scenario engaging in self defense scenarios at dusk or night while tryIng to move awa from a threat while keeping threat in your sights

    Advise? Resources? Drills?

    Thanks


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    We all need to practice fighting from the ground,usually this only occurs in an advanced course and you will start out already on the ground laying down. Train yourself to keep your finger straight on the frame of your weapon then if you fall your weapon won't discharge from some reflex. Also while moving I use the drag leg method that way one leg is always stable this method is not in vogue right now but has served me well through the years I first heard of this method years ago from Ken Hackethorn. If your in a gunfight don't throw your gun anywhere. Good luck. John

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    I used to practice fighting while falling down drunk, but to be honest, it never really worked out.
    RoadRunner71 likes this.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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    @OP, I think this is a really important topic. This is one type of situation where a hammerless revolver in a pocket might
    save the day.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    I believe that retention is the name of the game. If you're abiding by good training, your finger is likely not on the trigger (unless you were shooting as you went down).

    It also seems quite feasible that you're already on your kiester when you realize that you're in serious trouble. Let's go ahead and assume that your strong hand is out of commission as well. Do you have a plan to fight with your weak hand?
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  6. #6
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies

    To be clear though, the scenario is you are engaged and fighting for your life running for cover or just to create distance in a life threatening scenario. So you are shooting to end the threat while running to try to separate or get to cover. Its too easy to say "keep your finger off the trigger" unless you specify that you train to do only one thing at a time (move or fire, not both) --- which is certainly legit to claim if that is the way you train and think others (me) should.

    Otherwise, if you train to move and fire when needed, then how do you train for falling? You are very likely to be firing or have the finger in/on/near the trigger and your reflexes are going to take over to shield you from the fall unless you train very hard to overcome or redirect them.

    Please, nothing to do with being drunk.

    And the fall is during the move and unexpected.

    Specifically, when talking about good trigger finger control etc, is this something people are posting about or something they actually do? Ie has anyone actually done this?

    I was thinking about how to practice what to do. Ie setting up a bunch of obstacles/toys in my yard in the morning and practicing dry fire / pretend run for cover scenarios after dusk so I really wouldn't see or remember where the obstacles were but I thought I'd probably end up with someone calling the police. Even then its fairly contrived- I'd still "know" junk was around and I might fall; and of course it would be impossible to see how much this distraction affected my sight, grip, speed, accuracy, etc.

    So it almost has to be a professional training scenario. Anyone done this? Or offer it?

    @ john: At first blush I agree about not throwing the gun but again there are lots of true news stories about people shooting them selves trying to catch a falling gun. I am sure they thought they had good trigger control too. I don't own anything that would go off if thrown (or if I do, its just as plausible it will go off in the hoslter).

    @WHEC: I have a plan but that mike tyson quote comes to mind about everyone having a plan until they get hit. In this case I am still trying to figure out the best way to test the scenario.

    I was wondering about this when I remembered that famous video of someone shooting himself during some sort of active training program. What struck me the most was the guy seemed to be really into active training. With no intent to bash him at all, I recall during this very specific training after he shot himself he quickly laid the gun down. Not exactly what you would want to do in a fight after being shot. So if the mindset of training is so far removed from the reality of the scenario being played out, how do you really add in unexpected (and potentially painful) variables?

    I'd love someone to do a study where a self defense trainer or something, at the end of every class on safety, says "heads up" and tosses a (black painted) glock practice pistol towards the group. I'd be willing to bet a fair number (at all levels) will instinctively reach to try to catch it even though a second later they will remember that the safest thing to do it let it fall unmolested. Its so obvious what to do "on paper" but when it happens will you remember to ignore a lifetime of catching things when you recognize that specific shape? Would be interesting.
    Last edited by 1984; April 23rd, 2012 at 07:45 PM.

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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Check out Tactical Response ( Tactical Response ) and look up the Force on Force Training, I believe it's referred to as "The Fight". Then go to Login To: GetOffTheX Forums and read within the subforum Tactical Response Course Reviews, the reviews of the students on "The Fight" training. While you're there, read some of the reviews on Fighting Pistol and Advanced Fighting Pistol. If it's realistic training that you're after, then step on up to the pump with Tactical Response courses. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  8. #8
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Check out Tactical Response ( Tactical Response ) and look up the Force on Force Training, I believe it's referred to as "The Fight". Then go to Login To: GetOffTheX Forums and read within the subforum Tactical Response Course Reviews, the reviews of the students on "The Fight" training. While you're there, read some of the reviews on Fighting Pistol and Advanced Fighting Pistol. If it's realistic training that you're after, then step on up to the pump with Tactical Response courses. JMO
    Thanks. Have seen Yeager on YouTube. Will check it out.

    Do you have any firsthand experience with them? Just curious.
    Posts are for entertainment only. I have no training, database, background, knowledge of law, skills, or conviction of belief that anything I post is safe or relevant for your situation and bear no responsibility for any actions or events related to your interpretation of any of my post(s).

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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    I don't practice falling down with the gun in my hand but I have practiced shooting from the ground, on both strong side and weak and from my back. be careful when doing this but it is good stuff to practice

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    @OP-- I don't know how old or how athletic you are. I think those factors make a big difference in how
    you might think about this problem and the solutions to it.

    The last thing you want is to be flat on your back, maybe with a broken rib or vertebrae or skull g-d forbid, your gun
    tossed into the bushes, and the BG charging at you with a 2 X 4.

    I'm thinking that here's where setting up scenarios on mats in the gym could help you work out what is best for you.

    You can get a toy gun or practice gun and see how things go.

    Also, plan on staying on your feet-- I know, the tyson quote comes in.

    I've seen someone take a 3 foot fall, use the typical slap break of the fall and promptly snap their humorous on an
    electrical junction box which was sitting on the floor. There's no end to the bad stuff that MIGHT happen during a fall.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #11
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    @apv
    Thanks.
    Good point on practice.
    I have practiced shooting from the back solo as well but never with a real scenario. Without a gun and with someone charging me my instinct would be to put my leg(s) up to keep their club or fist from killing me. With a gun that instinct would be a wonderful way to blow my own foot off. I don't think i will be able to keep my wits about me in such a scenario without somehow going through it at live pace in some sort of simulation.

    @Hopyard
    Thanks.
    Certainly feel old and certainly not athletic.
    You hit the nail on the head. Lots can happen in a fall and Murphy rules. I worry more about the stumble- watching pro football players who get paid millions to hold onto the ball and its always when they get knocked off balance, but not down per se, that their ball control skills go to h*ll and the next hit or slap knocks the ball out. And they are athletic and get tons of practice. Seriously I worry about stumbling and that handwaving, "breaststroke" movement with a gun in hand. I'm responsible for any round out of my gun. Mats are a good idea but probably need a paint gun (cap gun?) to see if I fire one off mid stumbles by accident.
    Posts are for entertainment only. I have no training, database, background, knowledge of law, skills, or conviction of belief that anything I post is safe or relevant for your situation and bear no responsibility for any actions or events related to your interpretation of any of my post(s).

  12. #12
    Member Array Nicegy525's Avatar
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    this wouldnt be the end all answer to falling during a fight (but nothing really is anyways) Martial arts training for proper falling and rolling techniques can come in real handy. Even training the body to react with simple, unarmed fall or stumble and roll drills can be a huge help.

    Years ago I trained how to fall or do a controlled roll and come back up fighting quickly. This has stayed with me over the years and I have saved many injuries from falling or stumbling because my body still remembers how to control the fall to minimize damage.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    Thanks. Have seen Yeager on YouTube. Will check it out.

    Do you have any firsthand experience with them? Just curious.
    Yes, I have trained with Tactical Response. Feel free to PM me and I'll provide any info I can to help you out.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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