Closest I've come to drawing on someone, somewhat wordy

Printable View

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page

May 28th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Bill MO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1956

How long does it take you to draw and fire from an alarm state with your hand gripping your pistol?

And how long does it take for someone to cover 15 feet? So you shoot him and YES I know you carry a 45 which you kill him dead on the spot and knock him back on his backside 50 feet away. And you hit him in the little finger, so you have no worries.

Someone 15 feet away will cover that distance in about the time you hit him with your 1st round. In the time he is still on his feet and fighting he will cut you to ribbons. So you kill him but he still kills you. I don't call that going home safe.

Again, have you tried the skill you have against someone with training knife and airsoft? I think you may have a AHHHHH moment. Don't be one that stands on the range shots a sheet of paper and says "I can do this or I can do that." Put it to the test in FOF against live human beings and then tell me what you can and can not do. Just Me!
May 28th, 2012, 12:08 PM
W9HDG

Good job, you lived to tell the tale, reported the details to the LEO's and no one was hurt. Are there things you could've done differently? Sure but you survived, didn't get hurt, and probably learned a thing or two as a result and that is all that matters.
May 28th, 2012, 12:16 PM
noway2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1956

The Tueller Drill doesn't stipulate anything, and carries no weight of law in any precedence I have ever seen.

Watch the video by Massad Ayoob, the one Bark'n routinely suggests. In it he states that he was involved in a court case where the judge refused to allow admission of the Tueller Drill on the basis that the defendant didn't know about it and by extension had no way to determine or intuit when the line of immediate jeopardy was crossed.

One other thing that I may add is that while you revisit this situation and play what if, consider the aspects of AOJ or AOJP (ability, opportunity, jeopardy, preclusion). Clearly in your case the guy had the ability and opportunity to commit sufficient harm to justify lethal force. Whether or not you were truly in Jeopardy or not, I can't conclusively say from your post and my concern is that had you drawn and fired that this may have been where faced trouble. The reason I can't say with certainty is because a case of doubt could be made as to the guys intentions. Was he just trying to show you the knife to try to sell it to you for a fast buck like he claimed or was he threatening you? You said that he ran into the store. What happened in the store when he did? Did he try to sell the knife to the store? How would the store employee's testimony play at your trial? Personally, I would take having a knife drawn, opening the blade and approaching while being to stop as a reasonable threat. Those on your jury may see things differently.

The last concept, preclusion, plays into the stand your ground concept in which you don't have a duty to retreat. Preclusion covers did you do everything that was reasonably within your power to prevent the situation to where you had no choice other than to defend yourself with lethal force.
May 28th, 2012, 12:17 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harryball

You are right about not making blanket statements. Like "you'll be arrested and it will cost 50k." In the bold, MAYBE.....

If you are going to quote me, please be accurate, and in context. Thanks.
May 28th, 2012, 12:19 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by apvbguy

I think that your sheriff is an idiot for making such a prejudicial statement.

Not to worry, as a good lawyer will get you out of it. Of course it won't be cheap, but we already covered that.
May 28th, 2012, 12:25 PM
barstoolguru

Quote:

There appears to be a problem in mindset, possibly brought about by all the negative arm chair quarterbacking you read about in just about every shooting scenario these days....

it's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.....LOL
May 28th, 2012, 12:32 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspector71

It is a huge responsibility to carry a gun. If you carry, you may actually have to shoot someone to save your life someday. Now the question seems to be, when do I draw and when do I shoot? There appears to be a problem in mindset, possibly brought about by all the negative arm chair quarterbacking you read about in just about every shooting scenario these days....

A valid question, nonetheless.
May 28th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Spidey2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by apvbguy

I think that your sheriff is an idiot for making such a prejudicial statement.

I agree, but he has enough money and powerful friends to ensure his reelection every time. We got close at the last one, and the other candidates votes went up by about 200 after the recount! I told him a couple more recounts and he might have won. Personally I think they were playing games with the absentee ballots, but that's a story for another time.

As for the OP, he's alive, so it couldn't have gone much better. However, I'd hope he takes a different route if it ever happens again. An open knife at 15' certainly warrants at least drawing, regardless of what he claims his intentions are.
May 28th, 2012, 12:58 PM
Harryball

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1956

If you are going to quote me, please be accurate, and in context. Thanks.

Quote:

My lawyer told me it would cost me about 50 grand if I were to follow your advice and subsequently be charged with murder.

Sorry bout that. I hope this helps.....The statement is silly as it applies to this case...
May 28th, 2012, 01:11 PM
apvbguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by framedcraig1

It's always easier for us to look at a defensive situation, and to evaluate it, than it is to be IN the melee and try to do everything right. I'm thinking now..if someone pulls a knife while walking directly towards me..I have my hand on my pistol in my front pocket. I say STOP NOW. If he gets to within 20 feet, the pistol is drawn and close to the chest. I'm now saying "stop or I'll shoot". If he keeps coming, opens the knife, or gets to within 15 feet ...one last STOP!!. He had every right to stop. I have every right to defend myself. This to me is one of those scenerios that I have tried to already have decided before it actually occurs. Life is not an easy trip these days. Precarious times require strong reactions, and thoughtful reflection before bad stuff goes down. I'm glad it turned out okay for all this time.

in a syg state you are under no obligation to issue verbal warnings.
May 28th, 2012, 01:33 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harryball

Sorry bout that. I hope this helps.....The statement is silly as it applies to this case...

I liked the first part, but question the second. How is highlighting worst-case outcomes for ostensibly-justified shootings silly?
May 28th, 2012, 01:35 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by apvbguy

in a syg state you are under no obligation to issue verbal warnings.

Perhaps, but if you are charged, your high-dollar defense lawyer's job may be a bit easier if you did issue a verbal warning prior to taking the shots.
May 28th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Harryball

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike1956

I liked the first part, but question the second. How is highlighting worst-case outcomes for ostensibly-justified shootings silly?

Well, the guy didnt shoot anyone. He used his mind and the threat of a weapon, with a good outcome. So as it pertains to what happened, its silly. The other portion is that a lot of us live in a SYG state. Some of the folks here have actually used there weapons in a SD moment. Savvy
May 28th, 2012, 03:08 PM
First Sgt

To the OP.....If you are in the right, "It doesn't matter what you did.". If you are in the wrong, "It doesn't matter what you did." Don't worry about litigation when you need to worry about your life.

Problem one - Saving your life.
Problem two - Everything else.
May 28th, 2012, 04:08 PM
Mike1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harryball

Well, the guy didnt shoot anyone. He used his mind and the threat of a weapon, with a good outcome. So as it pertains to what happened, its silly. The other portion is that a lot of us live in a SYG state. Some of the folks here have actually used there weapons in a SD moment. Savvy

Since I was responding to this statement in the first place:

"At 15 feet with open knife in hand both you and your brother in law could be cut before you cleared leather by a good knife man. What I see at the pushing of the button and the knife springing opening most likely there would have been shots fired shortly thereafter. I'm sure there are those here who think I am a trigger happy SOB but give me a break I'm an old man who doesn't question what you have on your mind, I'll shoot. I've found over the years if it looks like a duck it usually is.

I see you needing more training so you know just what you did face in that situation."

I stand by my original responses.

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page