Closest I've come to drawing on someone, somewhat wordy - Page 6

Closest I've come to drawing on someone, somewhat wordy

This is a discussion on Closest I've come to drawing on someone, somewhat wordy within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Since I was responding to this statement in the first place: "At 15 feet with open knife in hand both you ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Since I was responding to this statement in the first place:

    "At 15 feet with open knife in hand both you and your brother in law could be cut before you cleared leather by a good knife man. What I see at the pushing of the button and the knife springing opening most likely there would have been shots fired shortly thereafter. I'm sure there are those here who think I am a trigger happy SOB but give me a break I'm an old man who doesn't question what you have on your mind, I'll shoot. I've found over the years if it looks like a duck it usually is.

    I see you needing more training so you know just what you did face in that situation."

    I stand by my original responses.
    Fair enough, I guess will agree to disagree on this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  2. #77
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Knife comes out, gun comes out...but that's just me.
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  3. #78
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    So you come on here and ask people to evaluate your actions, then when they do(and quite matter-of-factly i might add) you argue with them and get alittle huffy. Soooooo...... If you can't handle the heat..... get your supper from the drive thru(and dont go into the kitchen:)

    Seriously, if you think these guys are second guessing you, imagine what it would be like if you actually had to shoot someone. Just puttin that out there.

  4. #79
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    The very reason I absolutely LOVE this forum! It gives us a chance to read, dissect, discuss, and yes even debate an incident. In the end we all learn and grow. I would have drawn in this situation, but that is easy for me to say sitting in my recliner and reacting to what I have just read. My closet is fifteen feet away from where I am seated, someone bent on doing me harm could be on me in four full strides, quickly, seconds. With two people on red alert, with all said and done, great job and thank the good Lord the BG turned and retreated. THanks for the detailed account of the incident.

  5. #80
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    At fifteen feet with my hand on the grip of my pistol and in a condition of alarm, the guy showing the knife is the one whose life is in the most danger.
    Absolutely wrong!

  6. #81
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L3git View Post
    I've only had my CHL since last October and since then I haven't even come to condition yellow (except at my job where I'm armed security) but a day ago I almost had to draw on someone.

    Story:

    I went to a gun store with my brother in law who is a marine to shoot and look at buying a new duty weapon. We were there while and after BSing with the guy at the gun counter we were ready to leave as the store was officially closed, we walk out the door and almost get run over by a guy trying to get passed us (we both thought it was odd but decided to pay no mind). We were standing in the parking lot talking and the guy comes back out and approaches us. we both carry at about 4 oclock IWB so we turn a bit to get a good field of vision, we were too far from our cars and the rate the guy was moving it seemed to be our only option to talk to him while slowly edging back.

    At this point we already figure the guy is up to something by the way he entered a locked/closed store then came out directly to us. When he gets within about 30 ft we tell him to stop, he somewhat complies by slowing to an almost stop and he raised his hand (could tell he didnt have a gun by watching him and being able to see his hand) and he reveals a knife. I go orange but the knife is closed so we starting moving towards our vehicles without turning our back to him. He approaches again at a fast walk (keep in mind there in nothing but open space in the parking lot section we where in) so we stop and yell at him to stop. He does so but he' probably no mare than 15 feet away at this point and when he stops he hits a button and opens the knife... Red. I usually try to have a bottle of Sabre red on me anywhere I go even if I can't carry but unfortunately I didn't today and I still wasn't sure it would be the right option so my hand goes to the side of pants resting on the gun. My brother in law basically takes over at this point and starting yelling at the guy to back off, his hand is about the same position mine was in, with my other hand I get my phone and get ready to dial. The guy looked a little shocked and started stuttering about how he wanted some gas money because he had none and was broken down and the knife was expensive but he only wanted 5$ blah blah blah. We tell him to turn around and leave several times, he makes a very stupid move and re positions the knife to a threatening grip, I start dialing and my brother in law raises his shirt and reveals his 1911. At that point the guy decided it was a better idea to curse us and leave... in his "brokedown" running truck with his buddy in the driver seat.I had already dialed so I explained to the 911 operator what had happened and since he was leaving the parking lot I gave her an LP number and said we didn't need anyone to come out, she informed me she had an officer literally around the corner so he stopped by and talked to us about it and shook our hands saying he's glad we weren't one of the "sheep".


    Sorry it was so long but I tried to get as much detail as I could. Would anyone have done something different? Comments on how we did things?
    You let him get to close.YMMV

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Did you follow up with the gun shop clerk to find out what happened inside?
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  8. #83
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by framedcraig1 View Post
    It's always easier for us to look at a defensive situation, and to evaluate it, than it is to be IN the melee and try to do everything right. I'm thinking now..if someone pulls a knife while walking directly towards me..I have my hand on my pistol in my front pocket. I say STOP NOW. If he gets to within 20 feet, the pistol is drawn and close to the chest. I'm now saying "stop or I'll shoot". If he keeps coming, opens the knife, or gets to within 15 feet ...one last STOP!!. He had every right to stop. I have every right to defend myself. This to me is one of those scenerios that I have tried to already have decided before it actually occurs. Life is not an easy trip these days. Precarious times require strong reactions, and thoughtful reflection before bad stuff goes down. I'm glad it turned out okay for all this time.
    I might add that yelling, "KNIFE KNIFE HE'S GOT A KNIFE!!!" Will go a long way with any witnesses.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbum View Post
    Absolutely wrong!
    A point upon which we disagree.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  10. #85
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    1. your lawyer is incompetent
    2. you don't understand the law
    3. you are either very naive or foolish or both.
    4. I am done, you are too dense
    You should listen to apvguy Mike, apparently he knows everything and we should just listen and forget what we know!
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  11. #86
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Every situation is different and only the actual players know what's going on. Body language, facial expressions, bystanders. Nobody and I mean nobody knows how they will react til they are unfortunate enough to experience it for themselves.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  12. #87
    Member Array ducatirider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Did you follow up with the gun shop clerk to find out what happened inside?
    ^ That, and what did the PoPo do?

    (I waded through 5 pages of bickering, so I expect an answer, jkjk)

    Personally, I would have had my hand on my gun when I saw the knife, and drawn when he opened it, and fired if he tried to run at me, or if he got closer than 10 feet (because this is lunging distance and because I know that my ammo will put powder residue on the target at that range -- I think that little bit of forensic evidence would help me.)

  13. #88
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I did not write this; something I found on another site. I don't know the source.

    Overall, a bit long perhaps, but a good read. Hopefully it will help someone.

    "Street Robberies and You
    While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

    Background

    First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

    The Enemy

    Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

    No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

    He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

    This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

    Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

    Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastages in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

    We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. $## their own momma.

    We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

    That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

    The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

    One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

    I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

    You

    Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

    You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

    The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

    Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

    You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

    Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

    Dynamics of Encounters

    Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

    If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

    Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

    When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

    Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

    Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

    In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

    As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

    Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the poo poo out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

    The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

    When to draw

    Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

    Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

    I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

    Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

    Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some ************ up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

    When to shoot

    The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

    In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

    If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

    Guns and weapons

    The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

    Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

    Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

    Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

    Training

    We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

    I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

    He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

    Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

    After

    If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

    Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an ****(( just remember wait for your attorney.

    Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

    Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

    Worlds

    We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

    You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

    But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

    Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

    Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

    The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against."
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  14. #89
    Member Array jwinston's Avatar
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    If a guy got to be within 15 feet of me with an open knife I will hope I can drop him before he shreds me. With all the talk of IF IF IF. I dont care, at that range he is a threat and my life is in danger. Im not going to be thinking about the cost of the legal part at that point. I have a daughter and wife to go home to. Here where I live that same scenario would have been justified in me killing him.

  15. #90
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L3git View Post
    I guess I didn't was to pull early seeing as how there was 2 of us Had he of come forward after changing his grip it would have been out. And again if I was alone it would have been drawn.
    If he had been a serious criminal this story would be much more tragic. You let him get too close with a deadly weapon. At 21 feet is considered to be close enough with a knife to use deadly force in most circles. Had I allowed someone get that close to me and open their knife, my gun is out, pointed at the center of his or her chest, screaming "drop the weapon, drop the weapon, get back and drop the knife, over and over again" any movement towards me at that distance is a deadly threat and its game on. You and he were both lucky enough that guy was not serious, or you would both be cut up badly right now and possibly dead. Thats how serious of a mistake that was. On the other hand since I am trying to be nicer I have to be positive, it ended without coming to force, so thats always a good thing.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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