Warning cues to danger. LEO video of pedestrian stop.

This is a discussion on Warning cues to danger. LEO video of pedestrian stop. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a 10 minute video. It starts to get interesting at about 4:00 once the LEO realizes he has a possible escapee on his ...

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Thread: Warning cues to danger. LEO video of pedestrian stop.

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Warning cues to danger. LEO video of pedestrian stop.



    This is a 10 minute video. It starts to get interesting at about 4:00 once the LEO realizes he has a possible escapee on his hands. While not entirely relevant to civilian carry, note how the suspect goes from compliance to flight, then grabs for his firearm. His polite demeanor quickly changed to aggression as he charged the LEO screaming, put him down on his back, then demanded he roll over. Not sure who fired first, but shots are quickly exchanged. I assume that the Deputy went for his duty weapon which was most likely in a retention holster and took a moment to get into action. In my opinion Deputy Mecham is quite lucky to be alive. Either the BG had really bad aim or wasn't committed to killing the LEO, at least in the face of armed resistance.

    For the purpose of training, and not to bash the LEO:

    Definitely he should not have had his flashlight in his gun hand.

    Should he have drawn earlier in this scenario?

    Should he have had chemical spray at the ready in his offside hand?

    Should he have physically engaged the suspect during the BG's draw instead of backstepping into a fall?

    On a lighter note once backup arrives, "Deputy Rod" doesn't seem too quick on the uptake with Deputy Mecham yelling "Get your gun out" and "Stand on the gun." Doesn't inspire much confidence although he did have a great command voice.
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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    It is really hard for me to tell what the officer did wrong. As any of us who have dealt with the public know....things can turn from pleasant to poo poo in a split second...many times with little if any warning.

    One thing I have noticed that our local LEO will have a back up responding as soon as a warrant is in question before confronting the subject with the fact. You may have a point about the flashlight, but pepper spray would have been a waste of time, because the subject would have drawn then and officer's hand would be full of pepper spray can when both hands were needed for a weapon.

    I believe that officers are told to put as much space between them and the armed subject as soon as possible. If he had "rushed" the guy he may have been shot at close range and not been able to call for help. The guy probably had bad aim...I don't think that once he drew on the officer he had a "kind heart" moment.

    Should he have drawn earlier? I think that would have just pushed the subject to drawn and shoot sooner.

    I hesitate to criticize Officers in this type of incident. I really didn't see anything blatantly wrong that he did.

    From being in EMS, I am sure there are calls that you think about after and reflect on things you might have done different. Same goes for LEO.
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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    I know it turned out to be a badguy in the end, but my first question is why was the guy approached to begin with? Walking down the street - common or not shouldn't be a reason to approach and ask for papers, unless he resembled someone they were looking for (which the officer didn't specify).

    I think he probably should've had the guy put his bag on the ground from the git-go and had him stay in front of the car in the light and view of the dash cam.

    Glad he wound up being ok.

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    As stated not to bash, just some observations.

    Flashlight in gun hand.
    No pat down upon contact.
    Chemical spray would probably not have acted quick enough.
    Can't tell what happened off cam what was stated though he probably backpeddled into a fall.
    Engaged suspect until the suspect went down, then reengaged as needed.
    As said the backup officer was a little slow on the draw.
    Their team movements could use some work as the nervous backup officer needs some muzzle disipline work, but in his defense the initial officer was sidestepping pretty quick.

    I am glad he made it ok and in the end that is what counts.
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    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    I know it turned out to be a badguy in the end, but my first question is why was the guy approached to begin with? Walking down the street - common or not shouldn't be a reason to approach and ask for papers, unless he resembled someone they were looking for (which the officer didn't specify).

    I think he probably should've had the guy put his bag on the ground from the git-go and had him stay in front of the car in the light and view of the dash cam.

    Glad he wound up being ok.
    Guy walking down the street, wet, at 4am? Yeah, i'm gonna see whats up. He had every right to stop and say hi.

    I think the officer handled the situation very well from the parts that could be seen. He used quite a bit of restraint not shooting again. If a guy shoots at ya, and he's hit, on the ground, but still has the gun in his hand? Heck no...either drop it or its game-on. Takes more muscles to hold on to that gun than to drop it. Thats no accident.

    Stuff like this makes me glad I work in a city dept. Even though we get into the thick of it probably alot more often than these guys...I know my backup is 60 seconds or less away. This guy had to wait forever. I can't imagine working like that, not knowing where my backup is. Scary. Glad he's ok, and from what I saw he handled himself very well.
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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    I am thinking if he had "patted down" the subject initially...that would have just sped up the gun play. I believe he did explain in the beginning that they check people out walking that late in that part of town, but would that alone be enough to justify a pat down? Just asking...not really sure.
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    I would not have approached a down man with a gun from his angle of vision. I would have circled around and approached from his head ready to blast him into eternity.

    Backup? Whats that?
    For me Backup is quick if it arrives within 20 minutes.
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    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    I am thinking if he had "patted down" the subject initially...that would have just sped up the gun play. I believe he did explain in the beginning that they check people out walking that late in that part of town, but would that alone be enough to justify a pat down? Just asking...not really sure.
    Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Hey, its Wikipedia. As Michael Scott from The Office says..."Ahh Wikipedia. Anyone in the world can post infromation on any subject, so you know it has to be accurate) This article is pretty straight forward though. The basic criteria is that you need to be able to articulate why you think crime is, has, or will be committed, and that you have a reason to think the person might be armed. In the real world this standard is fairly easy to reach.

    Hotguns: I dont know how you do it. It's such a totally different mindset on how to do business. I talk with some of our County Deputies that border our city. They laugh and say they dont know how we deal with all the shootings and call load all night. I tell them I dont know how they work without 4 backup units within a mile of them. I guess its all what your used to. I just dont think I could get used to that feeling of being alone.

    Either way, I love and hate watching these types of video's. I hate watching them because I hate seeing LEO's being attacked, fighting for their lives. I watch them however to keep the images in my head so I dont let my guard down. Complacency happens to all of us I think...and it a beast.
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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I would not have approached a down man with a gun from his angle of vision. I would have circled around and approached from his head ready to blast him into eternity.

    Backup? Whats that?
    For me Backup is quick if it arrives within 20 minutes.
    Our LEOs may have a long wait....that is why several on EMS listen to give assistance if needed. On and Off duty. Hubby went out about a month ago and assisted a Deputy. After all...we are on the same team in the long run. This is a small town and we have to watch and help our own when we can. Sometimes "stuff" happens and you have to deal with the resources you have.
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    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
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    Just glad the officer wasn't hurt.
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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb2wji View Post
    Guy walking down the street, wet, at 4am? Yeah, i'm gonna see whats up. He had every right to stop and say hi.
    Only his shoes were wet, not his clothes; which is easily explained by walking in the grass. If he were up to no good (besides being AWOL from the halfway house), wouldn't he be wearing dark clothes - not white.

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    Member Array Crashoften's Avatar
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    Can't touch on the tactical stand point anymore than whats already been mentioned. But in the first 3.5 minutes or so watch as the guy gets more and more agitated with the longer the officer is in his car. To me that plus the info that he may have a warrant probably would have put me more on guard.
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    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    ^ Agreed. Nobody I talk to ever gets the "hey you might have a warrant" heads-up. Gives em time to stretch before they run / fight.
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    Member Array framedcraig1's Avatar
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    Yeah...I think the time to announce "you might have a warrant" would be right after pat down...and cuffs on "for officer safety." Once backup arrives, then would be a good time. Glad the officer came out okay!
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    Member Array gobbly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Definitely he should not have had his flashlight in his gun hand.
    I'm not LEO, but I concur 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Should he have drawn earlier in this scenario?
    I would have mine drawn, or at least at the ready (retention disengaged, ready to draw, as I've seen police do before).

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Should he have had chemical spray at the ready in his offside hand?
    I've always felt that in the close situations police are put in, things like OC spray are a tool to use with backup. One officer covers with spray, while the backup is ready to deliver deadly force. Since this situation the officer is alone, I personally would skip the spray and go right for the firearm. Again though, not being LEO and not knowing his dept policy, it's hard to say what he might have as far as requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Should he have physically engaged the suspect during the BG's draw instead of backstepping into a fall?
    It's a lot easier to say what he could have done after the fact. I am reminded of a story where a police officer had a revolver shoved into his gut. His subconscious reaction was to jam his finger under the hammer. It broke his thumb, but saved him from a point blank shot to the gut. At the same time, if it had been hammerless he would have been shot, and there's something to say for distance effecting aim, and the increased difficulty of hitting a moving target.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    On a lighter note once backup arrives, "Deputy Rod" doesn't seem too quick on the uptake with Deputy Mecham yelling "Get your gun out" and "Stand on the gun." Doesn't inspire much confidence although he did have a great command voice.
    It certainly does feel like his backup could have been a bit more proactive.

    I've heard LEO state a few times that they won't inform the suspect that they have warrants, or that they are about to be arrested, till they feel they have the situation under control. We don't know what they guy's warrant was for, but it would seem prudent in my mind to keep the suspect at ease while calling in backup.

    It kinda feels like he could have had better control over the situation. He's almost pleading with the guy to not make this difficult, and certainly doesn't give the impression of someone ready to employ appropriate force for the situation.

    This is all backseat quarterbacking of course, hard to fault a guy who is in 'save your life' mode. That sort of stress does strange things to people. This is why training is so important, actions have to be muscle memory, the sort of thing you do without even thinking.

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