mythbuster 6/10 dont bring a knife to a gun fight

This is a discussion on mythbuster 6/10 dont bring a knife to a gun fight within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think the thing that bothered me the most about the show was that they didn't keep one in the chamber. They didn't endorse that ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    I think the thing that bothered me the most about the show was that they didn't keep one in the chamber. They didn't endorse that as the proper way to carry or anything, but I can just see how thousands of people who only know about carrying a gun what they saw there, will now think that that is the proper way to carry for defensive purposes. It was a painfully slow draw to watch every time, thinking how much time he was wasting.
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  3. #47
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Since most CC people carry "ready to go", I considered the having to "cock" the weapon a big flaw in the experiment. But it was still better than that "shooter in the classroom" farce of a few years ago!
    What was the shooter in the classroom?
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    What was the shooter in the classroom?
    It was a very badly designed experiment to prove that in a Virginia Tech type situation a student with CC would probably be the first shot and not make any difference. It was designed and broadcast by either ABC or CBS, can't remember which now.

    In the experiment the "shooter" not only knew what the gun carrier (student) looked like but where he was sitting, he also was a shooting instructor.... Who by the way also spent about a half hour "teaching" the student subjects how to draw and shoot since none of them had any experience with guns.

    I think we had a thread about it here when it was broadcast.
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  5. #49
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    I know the importance of not remaining stationary when charged by a knife wielder. Never knew if there's a preferred direction to move in a situation like the one on MythBusters. Assuming all things equal, in what direction should a right handed shooter move when charged by a right handed attacker? What about a left handed attacker. My gut says move in a way that keeps your strong side away from the knife, but that's just my gut.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    It's always good seeing real guns being shot on tv. It's too bad the Tueller drill results in bad conclusions which I've seen/heard like "inside 21 ft, with a knife, I win" or "if you shoot someone past 21 ft (or some other arbitrary distance), it's no longer self defense". All the drill demonstrates is that someone with a knife 21 ft away is a lethal threat, nothing more. The guy with a knife will not necessarily win, he can still get shot, multiple times; a guy 20 yds away can be a lethal threat, with a knife or a gun (even a snubbie). I'd still pick the gun, regardless of the distance no matter how short and, for the most part, distance will not be a determination of whether or not someone poses a lethal threat. For those of you who are about to respond about a guy 100 yds away, a State Trooper once shot a guy armed with a rifle 70 yds away with his service pistol - with one shot.

    Oh yeah, it was a Glock

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    It's always good seeing real guns being shot on tv. It's too bad the Tueller drill results in bad conclusions which I've seen/heard like "inside 21 ft, with a knife, I win" or "if you shoot someone past 21 ft (or some other arbitrary distance), it's no longer self defense". All the drill demonstrates is that someone with a knife 21 ft away is a lethal threat, nothing more. The guy with a knife will not necessarily win, he can still get shot, multiple times; a guy 20 yds away can be a lethal threat, with a knife or a gun (even a snubbie). I'd still pick the gun, regardless of the distance no matter how short and, for the most part, distance will not be a determination of whether or not someone poses a lethal threat. For those of you who are about to respond about a guy 100 yds away, a State Trooper once shot a guy armed with a rifle 70 yds away with his service pistol - with one shot.

    Oh yeah, it was a Glock
    I agree, I'd prefer a gun to a knife any day (in my hand, not the BG's). But the Tueller taught me the importance of receiving some H2H training, and not depending on my CW to be my only (or even my primary) source of defense. Watching the LEOs fumble for their guns while being repeatedly "stabbed" by the BG in the Tueller vid was eye-opening for me.

    And, not that I doubt your story, but a source for the 70yd shot would be awesome.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that Tueller Drill is not a "drill" in the technical sense of the term. It's not a training exercise you need to practice for, it isn't something you should do in order to defend against knife attack.

    it was introduced as a way of creating awareness for LEOs to understand that a person with a knife will probably always get the first strike in if you rely on your gun as a defensive weapon. The Tueller Drill is a wake-up call to develop your SA and H2H skills because the odds are that you'll need to use your hands first, weapon second.

    In the classic setup, you stand here and the attacker stands there and you're ready and you know what's going to happen and it's a test of reaction time.

    In real life, the attacker starts to engage and you first have to become aware of that. That gives the attacker in real life a head start of several seconds while you, the defender, become aware that this person a) has a weapon and is B) attacking you. So, in the real world, it isn't going to be 21 feet - it's going to be 5 or 6, at best.

    You will never clear leather before that blade is on you.

    A good knife fighter will keep the blade concealed along the back of the arm and bring it into the picture only when in striking distance. Your defense has to be H2H, understanding that in all likelihood you will be cut once or twice or more before you are in the game. If you're lucky, you'll be able to get off the x, or block the weapon, or something, and if you train then maybe you'll know how to take the person down.

    Then you back off, draw your firearm, and things are in your favor. The Tueller Drill is designed to disabuse you of the notion that you'll be able to draw and defend yourself with the gun before the knife is cutting you. If you disagree with this statement, then do the Tueller Drill until you understand it. That's what it was designed to do.
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  9. #53
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Keep in mind that Tueller Drill is not a "drill" in the technical sense of the term. It's not a training exercise you need to practice for, it isn't something you should do in order to defend against knife attack.

    it was introduced as a way of creating awareness for LEOs to understand that a person with a knife will probably always get the first strike in if you rely on your gun as a defensive weapon. The Tueller Drill is a wake-up call to develop your SA and H2H skills because the odds are that you'll need to use your hands first, weapon second.

    In the classic setup, you stand here and the attacker stands there and you're ready and you know what's going to happen and it's a test of reaction time.

    In real life, the attacker starts to engage and you first have to become aware of that. That gives the attacker in real life a head start of several seconds while you, the defender, become aware that this person a) has a weapon and is B) attacking you. So, in the real world, it isn't going to be 21 feet - it's going to be 5 or 6, at best.

    You will never clear leather before that blade is on you.

    A good knife fighter will keep the blade concealed along the back of the arm and bring it into the picture only when in striking distance. Your defense has to be H2H, understanding that in all likelihood you will be cut once or twice or more before you are in the game. If you're lucky, you'll be able to get off the x, or block the weapon, or something, and if you train then maybe you'll know how to take the person down.

    Then you back off, draw your firearm, and things are in your favor. The Tueller Drill is designed to disabuse you of the notion that you'll be able to draw and defend yourself with the gun before the knife is cutting you. If you disagree with this statement, then do the Tueller Drill until you understand it. That's what it was designed to do.
    I did like the other myth they "busted" regarding action vs. reaction. I think it is a good illustration of what you are saying. The attacker has an inherent advantage.

    In one SD class I took, the instructor said of a knife attack, "You're going to get cut." If you're prepared, you will only get cut once or twice, in a non-vital area.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Sorry, can't find the article online, but I believe it was in the Glock Annual magazine years ago. As far as the guns capability, there's a guy on GlockTalk with photos of deer taken at 100+ yds with a 6" barrel 10mm.

  11. #55
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Sorry, can't find the article online, but I believe it was in the Glock Annual magazine years ago. As far as the guns capability, there's a guy on GlockTalk with photos of deer taken at 100+ yds with a 6" barrel 10mm.
    Awesome.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  12. #56
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    I had my wife especially watch Jamie charge Adam with the knife. It was an eye-opener for her.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tolduonce View Post
    I know the importance of not remaining stationary when charged by a knife wielder. Never knew if there's a preferred direction to move in a situation like the one on MythBusters. Assuming all things equal, in what direction should a right handed shooter move when charged by a right handed attacker? What about a left handed attacker. My gut says move in a way that keeps your strong side away from the knife, but that's just my gut.
    You should not give one moments thought to which hand you shoot with. The rule of thumb is to move laterally in the direction of the knife hand so as to make the attacker have to open up their stance in order to follow.
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    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Sorry, can't find the article online, but I believe it was in the Glock Annual magazine years ago. As far as the guns capability, there's a guy on GlockTalk with photos of deer taken at 100+ yds with a 6" barrel 10mm.
    Larry Vickers hit steel with the 10mm Glock back to 250 yards, I believe. Heck of a cartridge.


    As for the show, not only did they not have a round in the chamber, but he was drawing from a western holster! I would have much rather seen them test this in a current times situation. Round chambered and a concealment holster would have been MUCH better.
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    As I started reading this thread I was totally amazed that in this forum, we were well into page 3 of the thread before I saw any post from someone who appeared to have some idea of what the misnamed 21 foot rule actually means or even what it is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N4AOF View Post
    As I started reading this thread I was totally amazed that in this forum, we were well into page 3 of the thread before I saw any post from someone who appeared to have some idea of what the misnamed 21 foot rule actually means or even what it is about.
    I think most of us knew what they were talking about and didn't feel we needed to correct anyone. But, I can see how it is beneficial to the newbies.
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