Mugging situation.... lethal justified?

This is a discussion on Mugging situation.... lethal justified? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; New to forum, but plan to participate and give any and all input that I can. But I wanted to start things off with a ...

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Thread: Mugging situation.... lethal justified?

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    Member Array randomCOguy's Avatar
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    Mugging situation.... lethal justified?

    New to forum, but plan to participate and give any and all input that I can. But I wanted to start things off with a scenario that constantly runs through my head every time I walk our local trail. The primary question here is, when would you personally use lethal force in a mugging situation?

    Imagine an armed individual. He could have a knife or a gun (I will assume gun here because I feel that is more difficult to assess, but feel free to compare both). Sneaks out of the bushes, points his pistol to you and demands your items.

    ??
    What if he sees your gun and demands that?
    What if he gets distracted or his gun safety is on, do you feel your life is in danger to draw and use lethal force?
    At what point would do you consider yourself in imminent danger?
    Do you assume he just wants your items and will leave after, posing you no real threat??
    Last edited by randomCOguy; June 4th, 2012 at 09:33 PM.

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    Member Array chammons's Avatar
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    If the man is pointing a gun at me and already has the drop on my situation, I give him what he wants and play the odds, no way I can draw and use lethal force before he does, in that situation

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    Member Array gobbly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    What if he sees your gun and demands that?
    Assuming I couldn't get at it, I would let him take it. Not much choice imo. It's unlikely with my setup though :)

    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    What if he gets distracted or his gun safety is on, do you feel your life is in danger to draw and use lethal force?
    If I thought I could get the shot off, I would draw with my right hand and attempt to kill them, while using my other hand to try to control their firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    At what point would do you consider yourself in imminent danger?
    I doubt I could put all the possible situations into words, but anyone who points a gun at me would be putting me in imminent danger. Not all situations would I react with lethal force. I suspect many of us have had a firearm accidentally pointed at us where the intent is not to harm. It could be an idiot at the range with poor muzzle control (I've ducked and taken cover from these more times than I'd like to count) or other similar situations that do not warrant a lethal response. If the person intended to point it at me, I would feel in imminent danger, and if given the opportunity would respond with lethal force. I've never had a gun accidentally pointed at me where I misjudged the situation.

    Other weapons, I tend to fall back on the 20 foot rule. If they are within 20 feet with a weapon of any kind, it is potentially putting me in imminent danger. After that you have to evaluate intent on a case-by-case basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    Do you assume he just wants your items and will leave after, posing you no real threat?? Will a jury think that if you use lethal force?
    I will assume that anyone threatening me with a weapon is willing to use it. My state laws are not predicated on proving the threat, they are predicated on whether I believe my life or the life of others are in danger, or in prevention of a forceable felony, against an assailant who has the means. There are some oddities, like 1 vs 1 with no weapon, I would have a higher burden of proof in arguing self defense, 2 vs 1, or with a weapon, I'm basically covered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    New to forum, but plan to participate and give any and all input that I can. But I wanted to start things off with a scenario that constantly runs through my head every time I walk our local trail. The primary question here is, when are you justified (legally and practically) in using lethal force in a mugging scenario?

    Imagine an armed individual. He could have a knife or a gun (I will assume gun here because I feel that is more difficult to assess, but feel free to compare both). Sneaks out of the bushes, points his pistol to you and demands your items.

    ??
    What if he sees your gun and demands that?
    What if he gets distracted or his gun safety is on, do you feel your life is in danger to draw and use lethal force?
    At what point would do you consider yourself in imminent danger?
    Do you assume he just wants your items and will leave after, posing you no real threat?? Will a jury think that if you use lethal force?
    Find out the what the governing criminal statutes of your state are. Read them. Then, if you have questions, find an attorney in Colorado - and one the practices criminal law, not your brother's wife that practices real estate law. These are legal questions that center on the issues of the legal use of deadly force and your freedom, so you should not rely on "advice" from semi-anonymous Internet posters.

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    Member Array randomCOguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Find out the what the governing criminal statutes of your state are. Read them. Then, if you have questions, find an attorney in Colorado - and one the practices criminal law, not your brother's wife that practices real estate law. These are legal questions that center on the issues of the legal use of deadly force and your freedom, so you should not rely on "advice" from semi-anonymous Internet posters.
    I wasn't seeking legal advice. Simply getting some other peoples opinions on the choices they may make - and the reasons for them. Of course no situation will ever be the same as a hypothetical nor will the actions be the same as we envision.

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    Member Array randomCOguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobbly View Post
    I will assume that anyone threatening me with a weapon is willing to use it.
    Very true

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    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    The answer to your posed question varies in the different jurisdictions. Some have stand your ground, some require retreat, some don't allow lethal force in a property only incident. Some are different daytime versus night time. In virtually all situations you are allowed to use lethal force to protect your own life.


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    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    I wasn't seeking legal advice. Simply getting some other peoples opinions on the choices they may make - and the reasons for them. Of course no situation will ever be the same as a hypothetical nor will the actions be the same as we envision.
    Your question asked "The primary question here is, when are you justified (legally and practically) in using lethal force in a mugging scenario?" That's seeking legal advice.

    The question of "What would you do if <some fact pattern>?" is different.

    Some may think these are petty distinctions. They are not.

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    Member Array randomCOguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Some may think these are petty distinctions. They are not.
    1 day in the forum and already came across "that guy".....

    Edit question to: When would you personally use lethal force in a mugging situation?

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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    One guy? First of all I would never assume he wouldn't kill me.

    I would look behind him and yell, "GRAB HIM!!!" Immediately drop....while drawing from my pocket and try to get off as many shots as I could. Hopefully when I yelled he would turn to see who is going to grab him. Since I don't look like a threat, he could take his attention off me. What other choice would I have?

    But then I would never go walking alone on a trail.

    Guy has a gun on me??? Heck yes I would use lethal force.

    Knife or gun...same to me. I would try to stop the threat permanently and feel justified in doing so.
    blastissimo and WHEC724 like this.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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    Goodbye dirt bag,BANG!

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    I have a distinct advantage in being ambi. I can easily throw my wallet at him with my right hand and draw with my left. I've done it once with a guy flashing a blade. He ran when he realized what was happening.

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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    If you point a gun at me you are going down as soon as I get a chance, laws be damned.

    Very hard to do anything if the BG is already pointing his gun at you. You'd be better off making a grab for his gun. Grab the barrel, pull HARD and put your head down and head butt him in the chin.

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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    You best realize where I stand on this. At my gender, age and disability, even a "strong arm" robbery would be a threat to my life (IMO). A man who would accost me could do horrible things to me before he killed me and took my property.

    I have seen it done to others....I will NOT be the same. So if it is gun, knife, or brute strength...it is a life and death (or worse) to me and deserves a lethal response from me.

    Don't ever expect me to "cut a break" for some low life. He wouldn't for me.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomCOguy View Post
    1 day in the forum and already came across "that guy".....

    Edit question to: When would you personally use lethal force in a mugging situation?
    Relax. You may not like the answers you get here. The intent is to help, not to hinder. Maybe after two days you'll realize how many people seek legal advice here, when they shouldn't. Last thing I want is someone thinking they are on solid legal ground from something they read here and then they are put away for 20 to life (Hint - take more care in writing your questions).

    Since you are not seeking "legal advice," and asking what we would do, I'll bite.

    What if he sees your gun and demands that?

    - If he's armed with a knife, and he asks for my gun, I'd probably draw and shoot. He's got a lethal weapon, and trying to bend my will be threat of lethal force, and I'm in fear for my life.
    - IF he's armed with a gun, whole nutha ball game. At least he's going to let me "draw" since he demanded my gun. Can't answer. Would have to assess at the moment.


    What if he gets distracted or his gun safety is on, do you feel your life is in danger to draw and use lethal force?

    - I'd draw and shoot. I wouldn't let him play with his safety (I assume the only way I know is he pulls the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang - I can't tell if a thumb safety is up from a few feet away with him shouting orders at me). Shame of him for not using a double action!

    At what point would do you consider yourself in imminent danger?
    - As soon as the mugging starts. There's no protocol to a mugging. He may be very polite and then he may slice my throat in a split second.

    Do you assume he just wants your items and will leave after, posing you no real threat??

    If I made such assumptions, I wouldn't carry in the first place.
    Spirit51 likes this.

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