LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them! - Page 2

LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them!

This is a discussion on LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Living in the land of the free and home of the brave is getting scarier every minute....

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Thread: LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them!

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    Living in the land of the free and home of the brave is getting scarier every minute.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    LEOs break in because they think there is a BG there. You draw your gun and shoot. What do you think THEY are going to do? NOT fire back? That happened a few years ago to a woman. LEOs no knock warrant. She thought they were BG and drew her weapon (they had the wrong address). They shot and killed her. So what good would that "law" had done her? A apology card and some money for her survivors? This law means very little in the scheme of things.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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  3. #18
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N4AOF View Post
    The situation isn't nearly as clear as there being more good LEOs than bad ones.
    Try tallying them up in two columns and see how soon the count gets fuzzy (no pun intended)
    The really bad LEOs ought to be pretty obvious, such as cops who commit murder for payment by drug dealers.
    But how about cops who just commit murder because they are incompetent or annoyed or tired or scared (as in the NOPD)?
    If we agree that these murderers in blue belong in the Bad LEO column, how about the LEOs who commit perjury to cover up for the murderers?
    Then how about the ones who know about the murder and don't commit perjury but simply keep their mouth shut?
    How about the cop who comes up on a single vehicle traffic accident and finds that the driver is a LEO who had too much to drink, so he gives the "brother officer" a ride home without writing up the accident?
    At what point does simply being a brick in that Blue Wall make someone a bad cop?
    Or perhaps we should be looking at it the other way -- can a "Good Cop" ever turn a blind eye to official misconduct and still claim to be a "Good Cop"?

    I can agree with most everything you said which was also my reason for not following my first career choice. I was told by an older LEO mentor I would never fit in with today's LEOs & this was more than 20 yrs ago. I did pass test & was called for possible position but by the time that happened I decided he was correct.

    The reason I always try to say there are Good LEOs is because I have completely given up on Government & really believe the majority of the Government is more like an Organized Mafia. So I still want to believe there are still GOOD LEOs that really believe in "Protect & Serve" & not Policing for Profit.

    I guess what I am trying to say is I really want to believe there still are more GOOD LEOs (even by your definition) than BAD Ones so I give them the benefit of the doubt which is more than many give citizens now-a-days IMO.

    P.S. I also believe with every fiber of my being when any LEO, Judge, etc that is given extreme latitude & immunity in their job, if caught on the wrong side of the very thin blue line should be held to a higher standard of the law. I also believe the punishment should be more than a paid vacation with the public being left with the belief that they got away with the crime.

    P.S.S. I have personally known some very good LEOs in my life so out of respect for them I will try to remember not to stereo type all LEOs because of a few.

  4. #19
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    LEOs break in because they think there is a BG there. You draw your gun and shoot. What do you think THEY are going to do? NOT fire back? That happened a few years ago to a woman. LEOs no knock warrant. She thought they were BG and drew her weapon (they had the wrong address). They shot and killed her. So what good would that "law" had done her? A apology card and some money for her survivors? This law means very little in the scheme of things.
    SORRY our mistake wouldn't get it & there is no good excuse in that scenario. All LEOs involved are Outright MURDERS period & should be treated as such but would they NO. This type of scenario also why the mistrust is growing against LEOs.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    BOY OHH BOY!!!

    Why do people always preface cop bashing or end a cop bashing rant with "THERE ARE GOOD ONES" or "NOT THE GOOD COPS" People tend to more remember the negative experiences they have with any group... Including police. I am probably one of the most strident, and vocal opponentsto the militerization of the police, and police abuses. But these are the exceptions not the rule. Most police officers are honest, and want to adhere to the rules. Most of what people complain about the police is more politics. Judges are elected... Only a judge can issue a no knock provision into a warrant. All that hut hut hut crap wearing a cross between military, terrorist, and ninja clothing and weapons is nothing more than a show. An attempt tp project an image of intimidation. Fery few street cops use it or buy into it. But local politicians use it to show that they are tough on crime.

    As I said in another post. I spent the greater part of my adult life working as a police officer. During the course of my career I have served hundreds of warrants. I could count on one hand the number of no knock endorsements I've gotten. Someone mentioned old fashion police work. Well IMO thats the answer. Not dressing up like dog the bounty hunter. Really bad guys are not at all impressed with that foolishness. But chicks dig it...

    The police are like everyone else human. They are going to make mistakes. They may even serve on the wrong address... it can happen. This law allowes for the people in the wrong address to engage the police with deadly force? This my friends is a recepe for a disaster. I'd like a link where I can read the law word for word.
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  6. #21
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    BOY OHH BOY!!!

    Why do people always preface cop bashing or end a cop bashing rant with "THERE ARE GOOD ONES" or "NOT THE GOOD COPS" People tend to more remember the negative experiences they have with any group... Including police. I am probably one of the most strident, and vocal opponentsto the militerization of the police, and police abuses. But these are the exceptions not the rule. Most police officers are honest, and want to adhere to the rules. Most of what people complain about the police is more politics. Judges are elected... Only a judge can issue a no knock provision into a warrant. All that hut hut hut crap wearing a cross between military, terrorist, and ninja clothing and weapons is nothing more than a show. An attempt tp project an image of intimidation. Fery few street cops use it or buy into it. But local politicians use it to show that they are tough on crime.

    As I said in another post. I spent the greater part of my adult life working as a police officer. During the course of my career I have served hundreds of warrants. I could count on one hand the number of no knock endorsements I've gotten. Someone mentioned old fashion police work. Well IMO thats the answer. Not dressing up like dog the bounty hunter. Really bad guys are not at all impressed with that foolishness. But chicks dig it...

    The police are like everyone else human. They are going to make mistakes. They may even serve on the wrong address... it can happen. This law allowes for the people in the wrong address to engage the police with deadly force? This my friends is a recepe for a disaster. I'd like a link where I can read the law word for word.
    No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    This law doesn't mean squat. As a homeowner I am still faced with "is it a LEO mistake or a band of BG". If I KNOW it is LEO....I put up my hands and hope they don't shoot my Basset Hound, but how can I be sure? I feel very safe from this in my community because it is tight and the LEOs know us. But stuff happens. A address mistake with the Highway patrol who doesn't know us. Can happen. If I shoot a LEO when I am in my home and not knowing it is LEO and knowing I am not a wanted criminal...I believe that is dependable in a court of law (if I live that long). Intent is the key. I didn't intend to kill a LEO, I thought I was being invaded by criminals. This to me is a nightmare I hope I never see.
    Last edited by Spirit51; June 18th, 2012 at 10:14 PM.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver210 View Post
    No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.

    It's hard fir any law to protect a dead man. If the police accidentally enter your home in force... And you respond with deadly force.... Do you seriously think your going to survive? As I see it this law is a knee jerk response to another law limiting a persons response what they believe is a police mistake. The spirit of the original law is not to deny a citizen the right to protect himself his family or his property. The law is similar to many other states. A person may not resist an arrest the believe to be illegal. After an arrest is made or an indightment filed, or a warrant issued the remedy lies in the courts. This law is to bring legal disputes before a court. The arrest my very well be illegal. The warrant may very well be flawed, or even based in fraud. The remedy is in the courts. A line must be drawn between violence and order. This is such a line that's drawn with bias toward the police. The police can and will always meet force with force, and deadly force with deadly force. Knowing this the legislature seeks to protect the average citizen from possible unwarrented or unjustified force by restricting by law the citizen's use of force Vs the police. This actually put's the entire burden on the police. The police can justify use of deadly force against deadly force no matter what the circumstance of the arrest or warrant. But the police can not justify raiding the wrong home, or arresting a person who commited no crime. And in both case the citizen victim is alive to collect damages, or be made whole again. Hard to make a dead man whole again.

    Well thats my understanding of the matter.
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  9. #24
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    It's hard fir any law to protect a dead man. If the police accidentally enter your home in force... And you respond with deadly force.... Do you seriously think your going to survive? As I see it this law is a knee jerk response to another law limiting a persons response what they believe is a police mistake. The spirit of the original law is not to deny a citizen the right to protect himself his family or his property. The law is similar to many other states. A person may not resist an arrest the believe to be illegal. After an arrest is made or an indightment filed, or a warrant issued the remedy lies in the courts. This law is to bring legal disputes before a court. The arrest my very well be illegal. The warrant may very well be flawed, or even based in fraud. The remedy is in the courts. A line must be drawn between violence and order. This is such a line that's drawn with bias toward the police. The police can and will always meet force with force, and deadly force with deadly force. Knowing this the legislature seeks to protect the average citizen from possible unwarrented or unjustified force by restricting by law the citizen's use of force Vs the police. This actually put's the entire burden on the police. The police can justify use of deadly force against deadly force no matter what the circumstance of the arrest or warrant. But the police can not justify raiding the wrong home, or arresting a person who commited no crime. And in both case the citizen victim is alive to collect damages, or be made whole again. Hard to make a dead man whole again.

    Well thats my understanding of the matter.

    You should not be able to be charged with any crime when a LEO or LEOs make a mistake. I remember a story were a local police dept tried unsuccessfully to illegally enter a innocent mans appartment. After it was all settled they admitted they were at wrong Appartment yet the innocent victim was charged with trumped up charges to cover up the so called mistake to do with resisting & injuring the real Criminals/LEOs making a mistake. So yes you can live against a LEO Armed assault.

    Oh & no matter what excuse is used a mistake of this nature involving a Illegal invasion is "MURDER" & no one will convince me otherwise.

    Citizens have enough to worry about with Bounty Hunters, Repo-Thieves, Real Criminals etc etc breaking down their doors, we shouldn't have to worry about the Good Guys making a mistake.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    This is a law that you don't even want to consider using. However if you do consider using it if the occasion arises you might want to do the following now:

    1. Buy a nice ($$$$) life insurance policy on yourself for someone you like

    2. Pre-pay for your funeral

    3. Update/make will

    4. Let everyone know that you will be crazy enough to shoot at law enforcement in such a situation
    Secret Spuk and Reaperman357 like this.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver210 View Post
    No this LAW will protect you against being charged/convicted with Attempted/Murder of a LEO even when they make a mistake as it so fondly is called when they enter the wrong address & injure or Murder innocent victims. The law isn't the recipe for disaster, really the No-Knock Warrant is the recipe for disaster. Everyone always says you can't win or survive against an illegal armed assault but we all know this isn't a cut & dry answer in the real world.
    Amen to that.

    No-Knock warrants should basically NEVER be used; except in true, dire emergencies. Nowadays (at 70,000 to 80,000 annually), they are way too routine, and that's very bad for citizens IMHO.

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    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Once again... Not very often, but the police do make mistakes. Sometimes fatal ones. I had this same conversation with a few friends... Another retired cop put it this way. Do people run red lights on purpose? No they dont... sometimes they make a mistake. Could running a red light cause injury and loss of life? Of course! When a person get's caught running a red light do they want forgiveness?. Most do. Will they accept some constructive discretion on the part of the cop? I think anyone would. Why then are the police not afforded the same considerations? Is a person any less dead in a red light traffic accident than the person involved with a no knock gone wrong? Was either more preventable? What happens more often and is a bigger problem?

    I'm not justifying any mistaken wrong doing by the police... I'm just saying that the police are human and will make mistakes like anyone else. I'm saying the remdies for running a red light is in the courts as the remedy for police mistakes is in the courts. Not shooting it out with the police.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how your supposed to tell if it an illegal entry or not! Do you ask for a warrent before you draw and fire? I don't think I would take a chance on firing on a bunch of police in uniform breaking down my door because I figure it's an illegal entry. If they are coming through the door armed I am going to comply with their commands. If they have the wrong house we can sort it out once their guns are no longer trained on me.
    I look forward to reading about the 'man the barricades against the jack booted thugs' guys in the morning news.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    This is a law that you don't even want to consider using. However if you do consider using it if the occasion arises you might want to do the following now:

    1. Buy a nice ($$$$) life insurance policy on yourself for someone you like

    2. Pre-pay for your funeral

    3. Update/make will

    4. Let everyone know that you will be crazy enough to shoot at law enforcement in such a situation
    I for one would not shoot it out with police as I am an honest citizen and have given the police no reason to invade my home. I might however shoot it out with someone breaking in as I would assume that they were bad guys who wished to do me harm.
    I would rule out that the people breaking in were police because they have no reason to make a forced entry to my home.

    If through no fault of my own the police did break in because of a mistake on their part and lives were lost because of my belief that they were bad guys should I be charged? This seems to be what the law addresses. If its an illegal entry should it matter who is doing it?

    If I am breaking a law then I agree that I should not be able to use self defense or castle law to justify harming police.
    If on the other hand if I am not breaking any laws I should not have to give up my right to self defense when being attacked regardless of who the person attacking works for. I should not be charges with a crime for defending myself when I have done nothing to invite the attack.

    Michael
    mcgyver210 and Chevy-SS like this.

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