LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them! - Page 6

LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them!

This is a discussion on LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 The number of warrants served on the wrong address or reading the wrong address is tiny compared to the number of ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    The number of warrants served on the wrong address or reading the wrong address is tiny compared to the number of total warrants served. Yes it is a no win situation all the way around and there is no right answer. As I have stated before no knock warrants are a needed legal tool. The difference between a no knock and a knock and annouce warrant is very small so with either one you would only have seconds to make the decision as to what to do.
    There is a difference between the types of warrants. With the knock and announce warrant you are not surprised by the officers busting down your door. You have an opportunity to see they are officers with a legal warrant and the fact that they have the wrong address might be easily explained. With the no knock warrant at the wrong house stands a good chance of dying or at the least slammed to the floor.

    Yes I am sure if you ask law enforcement they will say no knocks are needed. For the most part they are used for drug busts. (note: I said for the most part) The fact the one person can/have been beaten or killed due to busting in wrong house negates and legal need for such warrants.
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  2. #77
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    I really think some folks are confused about warrant service.
    First off... I've never seen a warrant that was valid for service 24 hrs outside exigent circumstances. Usually the police are limited to between 5am and 12am. A 24 hr endorsement, or emediate service always required some explaining some good reason to the judge.

    A no knock endorsement also requires an officer to convince a judge that Officer safety or the safety of the subjects and or others would be in substantial danger if the subject had any warning at all.

    There are a few ways of serving a search warrant. The first and most popular is the controlled entry service. This requires a knock on the door before entering. It's done by prfessionals usually in some kind of police garb, who announce upon entry. The second is the dynamic entry. This should be done by trained individuals who usually have other primary duties. Often it's dome by non trained officers. The third is to just knock on the door, present the warrant, and ask to search.

    The investigating officer, and his supervision must decide what method is best for their situation. As I said before no-knocks are pretty rare as they should be. And as Tacman also said... there's not a lot of difference between a no knock and a knock and announce entry.

    There have been mistakes made in the past. I have never made one, but have seen other teams make them twice. One was an informant who just made it all up. That was sloppy police work, and the officer was disciplined for not doing his part. The other was an informant who changed his mind and marked the wrong apartment door. It does happen. In going over some of the more notable incidents in the news, I have formed an opinion. IMO these mistaken entries, and fatal entries are more because of a lack of training, and a lack of professionalism by the police, and magistrates signing warrants that should have been questioned a bit more. IMO for public safety and to preserve the subjects rights the best judge to get would be a flaiming liberal.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    As far as mistakes or wrong addresses....it happens several times a year. I read about them in the news. So please don't try to feed me that line.
    Sure it happens several times a year. But let's keep it in perspective. How many warrants are served a year? My old department alone used to serve at least three per day. That does not include the city departments or the sheriffs office. I would bet that per day nationwide there are probably ten thousand served.
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  4. #79
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    SS explained the warrant process for the most part let me add to that.

    It seems that there is some confusion on the definition of the warrant title "Knock and annouce".

    Spirit/Crowman lets say you have a warrant for unpaid traffic tickets and Deputy Bob comes to your home. He knocks on the door and waits for you to answer and explains the situation and takes you into custody or whatever and all is right with the world.

    That is a version of knock and annouce warrant service. When I said there is little difference between a No knock and a Knock and annouce this is what I meant.

    You have an arrest warrant or a search warrant has been given for your house. A No knock was not needed or justified in this case. Officers approach your door in a tactical formation with the first man acting as the breacher. When they are stacked outside your door at 0501 they bang loudly on the door yelling "Police, search warrant" over and over. At the same time another officer does a break and rake on a back window and throws a flash bang, someone outside on the PA may be stating "This is the police" and so on, sirens may be used. The breacher now hits the door with a ram and they enter the house, timeframe 5 to 15 seconds.
    That is a "Knock and Announce" warrant service by every definition of the law.
    There is not a set amount of time between the "KNOCK, ANNOUNCE and ENTRY" some say enough time to answer the door others announce and enter. ***If there has been some sort of set time determined by the courts please let me know***

    A "No Knock" is pretty much like the above except they are in the house with flash bangs out without saying a word and if approved by a judge and served on the right place at the right time is and has been a legal and needed LE tool.

    You are correct in saying it is a no win situation and it is but you cannot stop doing warrants simply because the bad guys are using that tactic. No offense but several times a year does not amount to a whole lot. Someone on here posted that there are tens of thousands of warrants served in the US annually. Those numbers drop when you count the No Knock only and the percentages of those served on the wrong address overall are tiny compared to the number of warrants served.
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  5. #80
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    So I guess if you are killed by BG pretending to be LEOs it just sucks to be you. I would never do anything to hurt any member of Law Enforcement, but I would fight to the death to protect me and mine from Bad Guys. I guess it is just a "crap shoot" as to which it is. The chances may be very low that I will be confronted by this, but any chance is too much to me. So I am back to where I was when this thread started.....damned if you do/damned if you don't.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  6. #81
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    There IS a difference. If a officer knocks on my door....I answer and know who he is and comply. If they break down my door, in the middle of the night, wearing masks and black ninja suits yelling "Police", shooting my basset hound then they MIGHT be actual LEO OR they might be bad guys invading my home. How am I, as a law abiding citizen, know the difference? If I defend my home, thinking they are bad guys, I get wasted by the police.....if I lay down on the floor and they are bad guys....I am dead. Either way I LOSE. Does this seem fair for the citizen who follows the letter of the law?
    There is no difference between a Bad Guy & the Police in this type of situation unfortunately. As a home owner I just can't assume an intruder in Miltary Tactical gear is a LEO. It is disturbing to read the post by LEOs & Former LEOs, that portray a belief that if they MURDER you while you are defending your self against their illegal actions it is an accepted out come to MURDER you. This is the problem, too many Police depts have adopted a Military war like view of how to deal with innocent civilians that no longer includes To Protect & Serve. In this day & time with technology there is never any Excuse for Murdering an innocent family including their pets in their own home by mistake or other wise.

    It is a known fact some will "Murder" You & your Pets by past incidents with NO or very little punishment so what is to deter this type of incident?

    I remember when I was a kid you knew the POLICE were the good guys & would never LIE to you. Yes I know even then there was Bad Good Guys but I did believe a Police Man was there to protect me from danger.
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  7. #82
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    Mcgyver where did you come up with this?

    It is disturbing to read the post by LEOs & Former LEOs, that portray a belief that if they MURDER you while you are defending your self against their illegal actions it is an accepted out come to MURDER you. This is the problem, too many Police depts have adopted a Military war like view of how to deal with innocent civilians that no longer includes To Protect & Serve. In this day & time with technology there is never any Excuse for Murdering an innocent family including their pets in their own home by mistake or other wise.

    I have not read any post or stated myself that is accepted for anyone to come and murder you. The simple fact is if a legal warrant is served in a tactical manner on your home and you raise a firearm you will probably be shot. If it is a gang of thieves dressed as cops and you do nothing you may be injured or killed, it is a truly a no win situation either way. I do not know an answer for as long as there are people intent on committing crimes LE has a duty to react to it.
    LE cannot water down tactics and simply knock on a door and wait for the guy to answer. The criminal element has dictated the LE response not the other way around.

    You cannot stop doing something just because the criminal element copy it. In my home state they had the blue light rapist. He had a blue light on the dash and would make a traffic stop on a female and then sexually assault her. They could not stop making traffic stops because of it. They did implement procedures where lone females when in doubt would wait to stop at a public area without penalty but guess what the next thing you know you have some 6'4 guy who flees from an officer and when he was stopped his first words were "I wasn't fleeing I thought it was the blue light rapist and I was trying to get to a public place".
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #83
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    There is the lose lose situation whether the criminal busts into your residence yelling police, police,police or law enforcement doing it with a no knock warrant. As I mentioned in previous posts no knock warrants are wrong as they can/and have put law abiding citizens in danger of being beating and or killed. Going back to not allowing no knock it at least gives the law abiding citizen a fair chance when someone busts in yelling police, police, police.

    Criminals are criminals and will most likely never stop being them. For the X amount of times (probably not as much as one thinks) no knock has gotten what the officers where looking for is it really worth killing a law abiding citizens due to human error with a no knock warrant. There we always be another day to get the criminal if they fail with a knock warrant. Simply put no knock warrants are wrong, period.

    A few years ago they did a no knock 3 houses down from me for supposed drug bust. What the officers got was nothing found and no one was arrested. If by human error they came to my house instead its possible I might not be here to say no knock is wrong, wrong.
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  9. #84
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver210 View Post
    There is no difference between a Bad Guy & the Police in this type of situation unfortunately. As a home owner I just can't assume an intruder in Miltary Tactical gear is a LEO. It is disturbing to read the post by LEOs & Former LEOs, that portray a belief that if they MURDER you while you are defending your self against their illegal actions it is an accepted out come to MURDER you. This is the problem, too many Police depts have adopted a Military war like view of how to deal with innocent civilians that no longer includes To Protect & Serve. In this day & time with technology there is never any Excuse for Murdering an innocent family including their pets in their own home by mistake or other wise.

    It is a known fact some will "Murder" You & your Pets by past incidents with NO or very little punishment so what is to deter this type of incident?

    I remember when I was a kid you knew the POLICE were the good guys & would never LIE to you. Yes I know even then there was Bad Good Guys but I did believe a Police Man was there to protect me from danger.
    But the flip side of that is that to the LEOs serving the warrant there is no difference between you and the heavily armed drug dealer. They are not serving warrants to get their jollies. Most of the officers I know hate warrant service. Especially high risk warrants. They get paid just as much to write a handicap parking violation ticket as they do to kick a door in. They are much more likely to get killed or crippled on a warrant service than they are writing a parking ticket. Not much upside for them and a whole lot of potential downside.

    Now unless you believe they are going around and hitting incorrect locations intentionally I assume you would agree that the officers that mistakenly hit a house are reasonable in their belief (based on the information they have at the time) that someone in that house is potentially dangerous or might be inclined to destroy evidence which is why they are forcing entry. They are there as a result of an investigation and a judicial process that is conducted by people that do these things for a living.
    So, I ask you, based on that reasonable belief if you present armed resistance to the officers serving a warrant at your house how should they react? And why is your belief that they are criminals coming through your door any more reasonable than their belief that you are a criminal?
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  10. #85
    Senior Member Array yz9890's Avatar
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    I think the point is that in the absence of sufficient identification, an armed person forcing entry into your home must be considered a threat. Especially if you have no reason to expect to ever have the police kick in your door. On the other side, the police must accept the intelligence that sent them to your door. A terrible scenario to be sure. Both sides could potentially die and it's possible neither would be at fault.
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  11. #86
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    Going back to not allowing no knock it at least gives the law abiding citizen a fair chance when someone busts in yelling police, police, police.

    Well I give up. I just explained that the difference between a No Knock Warrant and a Knock and Announce Warrants is a matter of seconds not minutes while you get dressed, then call the PD to see if all is right with the world. If someone bangs on the door yelling "Police, Search Warrant" are you now magically protected and reassured that they are LE because they announced?

    If a criminal is going to imitate LE by yelling "Police, Open the door" they are not imitating a No Knock anyway they are imitating a Knock and Announce type warrant. If they are imitating a No Knock warrant and have kicked in your door without warning they are already there why even pretend?

    But to each his own I guess you do whatever it is you feel you have to do to justify it in your own mind.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #87
    Senior Member Array yz9890's Avatar
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    it would be nice to have an opportunity to call 911 and ask if the police knocking on my door were legit.

    I have no solution to offer for a no-knock or other type where there would be no time for the homeowner to check or a tactical reason to keep the homeowner uninformed. just a crappy scenario all around if it's the wrong address or wrong person.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    ......Someone on here posted that there are tens of thousands of warrants served in the US annually. Those numbers drop when you count the No Knock only and the percentages of those served on the wrong address overall are tiny compared to the number of warrants served.


    That was me that posted to number of raids as 70,000 to 80,000 annually. Whether they are "No Knock" or "Knock and Announce" makes little difference to a civilian like me. It still means your door gets smashed in, your dog likely gets killed, and maybe other family members die. And if, in my groggy state, I even just have a weapon in hand, I will likely die. Not to mention that I might mistakenly kill or injure a LEO, and spend the rest of my life in jail. Very, very ugly outcome no matter how you look at it.

    Look at Cato Institute map below showing some of the results of these raids. There are way too many "isolated incidents". Map & related articles here



    -
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  14. #89
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    That was me that posted to number of raids as 70,000 to 80,000 annually. Whether they are "No Knock" or "Knock and Announce" makes little difference to a civilian like me. It still means your door gets smashed in, your dog likely gets killed, and maybe other family members die. And if, in my groggy state, I even just have a weapon in hand, I will likely die. Not to mention that I might mistakenly kill or injure a LEO, and spend the rest of my life in jail. Very, very ugly outcome no matter how you look at it.

    Look at Cato Institute map below showing some of the results of these raids. There are way too many "isolated incidents". Map & related articles here



    -
    As that map shows multiple categories including ones with their subjective assessment as to what is "excess" or "unnecessary" I wanted to filter it. Went to the page that hosts that map but couldn't get their search function to work properly. Also that map shows their reported incidents for over twenty six years. Can you find anything that shows how many of these incidents took place in say 2009? I am curious how the map would look if it just showed raids on and deaths of innocent people for a single year.
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  15. #90
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As that map shows multiple categories including ones with their subjective assessment as to what is "excess" or "unnecessary" I wanted to filter it. Went to the page that hosts that map but couldn't get their search function to work properly. Also that map shows their reported incidents for over twenty six years. Can you find anything that shows how many of these incidents took place in say 2009? I am curious how the map would look if it just showed raids on and deaths of innocent people for a single year.

    I couldn't get the filter to work either. But so what if it's 26 years or 26 minutes? It's basically showing all results of this type of raids, which seems reasonable.

    EDIT: I sent an email to Cato, asking about the filter problem. Will post their reply (if any).

    2nd EDIT: Reply from Cato Institute:
    "We are actually working on a fix for that. For now you can click the balloons on the map for a description. You can also limit the type of incident by clicking on the balloons in the key.

    Thank you,
    Scott Morrison
    Manager of Web Technologies
    Cato Institute"



    -
    Last edited by Chevy-SS; June 25th, 2012 at 01:51 PM.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

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