LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them!

This is a discussion on LEO breaks into your Home w/o warrant - Now you can shoot them! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is my first post in this thread, and while I cannot take the time to go back and read it all I read the ...

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  1. #91
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
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    This is my first post in this thread, and while I cannot take the time to go back and read it all I read the last two pages and see some valid points on both sides. I have nothing to add to this conversation but my opinion, which is this:

    I am very much a law abiding citizen. I pay my taxes, try to go the speed limit, don't murder people and sure enough never double park. While I doubt my house will ever be the scene of a mistaken no-knock warrant I can't even begin to explain to you how much I despise the whole premise, but I will try. Now let me begin by saying that I do understand the officer safety thing, err understand the idea behind it, but not the actuality of it. My dwelling is my castle. I go through life day by day, following the rules and playing nice. The existence of no knock warrants without legislation protecting a citizen that may kill or injure a law enforcement officer in the serving of one ludicrous. It is a warrant giving the police permission to break into someones home and in certain cases mistakes are made. I would never draw on an unidentified threat in public but Jesus Tapdancing Christ if you come breaking through my window you better believe I'm gonna be muzzle up and half pulling on that trigger before I even know who you are. I'd say if you are not willing to offer citizens protection in the case of a botched serving where an officer may lose their life then you don't get to have no knock warrants.
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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    I couldn't get the filter to work either. But so what if it's 26 years or 26 minutes? It's basically showing all results of this type of raids, which seems reasonable.

    EDIT: I sent an email to Cato, asking about the filter problem. Will post their reply (if any).

    -
    So going by your earlier estimate of eighty thousand "raids" per year twenty six years would mean two million eighty thousand raids were performed in that time. If we could clear that map to show only the raids that hit the wrong house we would see how many out of that two million plus raids? So out of those two million plus raids what percentage of the time did they hit the right house?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So going by your earlier estimate of eighty thousand "raids" per year twenty six years would mean two million eighty thousand raids were performed in that time. If we could clear that map to show only the raids that hit the wrong house we would see how many out of that two million plus raids? So out of those two million plus raids what percentage of the time did they hit the right house?
    So a person who is impacted by this kind of "mistake" just has to "take one for the team"?? That's is all good and well....unless YOU are the innocent victim of this kind of mistake or victim of BG using this as a tactic. Right?
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  5. #94
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    And why is your belief that they are criminals coming through your door any more reasonable than their belief that you are a criminal?
    Because I have a constitution that says so.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    If I'm not a criminal and a warrant gets served on me, I think it's pretty much universally believed it's unreasonable to have to acquiesce and have my home forcibly invaded with no warning, no explanation and a high probability of death or injury to myself.

    I'm no longer in an apartment as I used to be. I'm now in a house with a fully-functioning alarm system. The way it's set up, there's no way I'm going to hear a knock and announcement of "Police" unless they do it loudly and do it for a good while. What I will hear is my alarm system going off if/when the door breaks down. That siren is in the hallway I would have to go through to get to the front door, or the police to get to me. You can see the obvious complication, I would not hear anything anyone said over the alarm. I also am nearsighted, leaving me with the ability to see only silhouettes at night with my contacts out.

    Therefore, whether a "no-knock" or a "knock, announce, break down door" entry, I have little to no chance of identifying the intruder, and so would grab the shotgun I keep loaded and next to my bed. My wife would probably grab her Kahr and get in the bathroom, leaving her vulnerable to being shot by police for being armed as well.

    What are the chances of that happening? I don't know. Probably pretty slim. It is a rent house though. We're the first renters since the landlord bought it and we don't know anything about the previous owners except they were foreclosed on and messed the place up pretty good before they got ejected. Could be they had a criminal history, never know. Maybe police get a tip based on outdated information.

    I personally believe both "no-knock" and "knock, announce, enter" warrants are completely unreasonable outside of the police proving to a judge that they have photographic or other hard, documented proof that there are illegal activities *currently* taking place inside the home. Not circumstantial evidence. Not "we believe this wanted person may be there, and because he *might* be there and *might* be armed we want to just break the door down and shoot up anyone who looks at us wrong." There is a place for these types of warrants, but they should be extremely rare and extremely difficult to obtain.

    At a minimum:

    - Documented photographic, audio, video or other hard media indicating the current residents are currently engaged in illegal activity.
    - Evidence that the residents are armed and pose a threat to officers in tactical gear.
    - Proof or reasonably articulated argument that evidence necessary in the prosecution of those individuals will be destroyed if the subjects have more than 3-5 minutes warning.

    LE should have to go to a judge and say we have evidence that X is occurring at this residence. The evidence necessary to prosecute them is easily destroyed in 2-3 minutes, so we need to be able to knock and enter immediately. We have reason to believe they are armed and pose a threat to officers entering.

    A tip from an informant should NEVER be evidence enough to get a warrant of this type. I know that there are those who will say there are procedures in place to prevent these things from happening, but it still manages to happen anyway. Believe me, I support the LE community and the job they do. It's tough and often thankless. But that doesn't give them the right to break into my home at 3AM with little or no announcement, then shoot me when I attempt to defend myself and my wife against unknown invaders in a drowsy, sight-limited and loud environment, then blame it on a bad tip. No. In my opinion, in order to get a warrant to do that they had better have effectively proved guilt - not suspicion - to a court beforehand.
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  6. #95
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    So a person who is impacted by this kind of "mistake" just has to "take one for the team"?? That's is all good and well....unless YOU are the innocent victim of this kind of mistake or victim of BG using this as a tactic. Right?
    It sucks for everyone involved. As has been stated before your odds of success in defending yourself against an entry team there to serve a warrant are slim. They are trained and specifically equipped to deal with armed resistance. And of course if they are making this kind of entry it is because they are to a degree expecting resistance. It is going to be a bad scene. It is up to you how it plays out, but there is no "happy" ending to a situation like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by paaiyan View Post
    Because I have a constitution that says so.



    If I'm not a criminal and a warrant gets served on me, I think it's pretty much universally believed it's unreasonable to have to acquiesce and have my home forcibly invaded with no warning, no explanation and a high probability of death or injury to myself.

    I'm no longer in an apartment as I used to be. I'm now in a house with a fully-functioning alarm system. The way it's set up, there's no way I'm going to hear a knock and announcement of "Police" unless they do it loudly and do it for a good while. What I will hear is my alarm system going off if/when the door breaks down. That siren is in the hallway I would have to go through to get to the front door, or the police to get to me. You can see the obvious complication, I would not hear anything anyone said over the alarm. I also am nearsighted, leaving me with the ability to see only silhouettes at night with my contacts out.

    Therefore, whether a "no-knock" or a "knock, announce, break down door" entry, I have little to no chance of identifying the intruder, and so would grab the shotgun I keep loaded and next to my bed. My wife would probably grab her Kahr and get in the bathroom, leaving her vulnerable to being shot by police for being armed as well.

    What are the chances of that happening? I don't know. Probably pretty slim. It is a rent house though. We're the first renters since the landlord bought it and we don't know anything about the previous owners except they were foreclosed on and messed the place up pretty good before they got ejected. Could be they had a criminal history, never know. Maybe police get a tip based on outdated information.

    I personally believe both "no-knock" and "knock, announce, enter" warrants are completely unreasonable outside of the police proving to a judge that they have photographic or other hard, documented proof that there are illegal activities *currently* taking place inside the home. Not circumstantial evidence. Not "we believe this wanted person may be there, and because he *might* be there and *might* be armed we want to just break the door down and shoot up anyone who looks at us wrong." There is a place for these types of warrants, but they should be extremely rare and extremely difficult to obtain.

    At a minimum:

    - Documented photographic, audio, video or other hard media indicating the current residents are currently engaged in illegal activity.
    - Evidence that the residents are armed and pose a threat to officers in tactical gear.
    - Proof or reasonably articulated proof that evidence necessary in the prosecution of those individuals will be destroyed if the subjects have more than 3-5 minutes warning.

    LE should have to go to a judge and say we have evidence that X is occurring at this residence. The evidence necessary to prosecute them is easily destroyed in 2-3 minutes, so we need to be able to knock and enter immediately. We have reason to believe they are armed and pose a threat to officers entering.

    A tip from an informant should NEVER be evidence enough to get a warrant of this type. I know that there are those who will say there are procedures in place to prevent these things from happening, but it still manages to happen anyway. Believe me, I support the LE community and the job they do. It's tough and often thankless. But that doesn't give them the right to break into my home at 3AM with little or no announcement, then shoot me when I attempt to defend myself and my wife against unknown invaders in a drowsy, sight-limited and loud environment, then blame it on a bad tip. No. In my opinion, in order to get a warrant to do that they had better have effectively proved guilt - not suspicion - to a court beforehand.
    And the situation we are talking about a warrant has been issued based on probable cause as the Fourth Amendment requires. That is more than mere suspicion. So yes they have proven to a judge that they have evidence a specific law is being broken at a specific location before the warrant is issued. They have to tell the judge we have this evidence that shows this crime is taking place at this location and we would like a warrant to seize this specific evidence that is at this specific location. If they don't have enough to satisfy the judge they don't get the warrant.

    Your desire for photographic, wire tap or other "hard" evidence of current activity is simply not possible as they can only show what took place at that point in time. It can only show what did happen, not what is happening now. So as a compromise how much of a time delay between obtaining that hard evidence and officers hitting the door would you say is fair? If they got pictures on Monday would it be OK to hit the house on Friday?
    As far as evidence that the occupants are armed, a lot of times they have that. I don't know about other states but in Maryland the state police have a database of all "restricted" firearms sold or transfered in the state. So many times they will actually have that information.
    As far as proof that evidence may be destroyed, that is pretty easy in some cases. How long do you think it would take to flush a pound of sugar down the sink or the toilet? So yes a forced entry type warrant service is going to be much more likely in a drug case than when looking for stolen car parts.

    There are about125 million homes in the U.S. so the odds of you getting hit are pretty slim
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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    RE the evidence: I perhaps worded it incorrectly. Evidence gathered Monday that could reasonably infer ongoing criminal activity could be used to get a warrant within a reasonable amount of time, such as a couple weeks.

    RE probable cause already being required: If the requirements are already in place, how is it police manage to hit innocents?

    Tell the odds to the people it's happened to. If they're still alive to hear it, that is.
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  8. #97
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So going by your earlier estimate of eighty thousand "raids" per year twenty six years would mean two million eighty thousand raids were performed in that time. If we could clear that map to show only the raids that hit the wrong house we would see how many out of that two million plus raids? So out of those two million plus raids what percentage of the time did they hit the right house?

    Whether it's one thousand raids or one million raids - in the end, what does it really matter? Lots of mistakes are being made. Citizens should NOT be subjected to this kind of 'legalized' terrorism, especially on this incredible scale, with TENS OF THOUSANDS of these raids annually. I would bet my LIFE that our Founding Fathers would NOT have approved of these raids at this level.

    -
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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    It sucks for everyone involved. As has been stated before your odds of success in defending yourself against an entry team there to serve a warrant are slim. They are trained and specifically equipped to deal with armed resistance. And of course if they are making this kind of entry it is because they are to a degree expecting resistance. It is going to be a bad scene. It is up to you how it plays out, but there is no "happy" ending to a situation like this.
    That's the catch in this situation. They know that they are police serving a warrant. The person on the inside of the home does not have that luxury, which means in the cases where the wrong address is broken into those people have to decide if they think the intruders actually are cops or intruders posing as cops, and act on that decision immediately. Not very fair if you ask me.

    You might say well, there is only one mistake per 20,000 raids. My rebuttal to that would be me asking you to show me where the fourth amendment allows a leniency for certain statistics.
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  10. #99
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    Maybe I need to make this clear....again. I would never show any resistance to actual Law Enforcement. I could comply and ask them not to kill my dogs. Since it would be a mistake....I would leave it to the courts to make them to "pay" for their mistake. I am not "sue happy" but I am not going to lose money on a mistake LEO have made. You break it...you bought it. I am just wondering how I am to know the difference between real and fake LEOs. Some of the LEOs and former LEOs think that there is a "secret" way to know the difference. I see these actual incidents on reality TV all the time....I am sure the criminals do too. So I am left with "sucks to be you" as the finial answer.
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  11. #100
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Whether it's one thousand raids or one million raids - in the end, what does it really matter? Lots of mistakes are being made. Citizens should NOT be subjected to this kind of 'legalized' terrorism, especially on this incredible scale, with TENS OF THOUSANDS of these raids annually. I would bet my LIFE that our Founding Fathers would NOT have approved of these raids at this level.

    -
    At what scale? Do we have a number yet of how many times the wrong house was hit?
    As far as the founding fathers go, they are the ones that specified the standard of probable cause for warrants, not absolute certainty. That in itself shows that they understood and accepted the fallibility of the process and everyone involved in it.
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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Mcgyver where did you come up with this?

    It is disturbing to read the post by LEOs & Former LEOs, that portray a belief that if they MURDER you while you are defending your self against their illegal actions it is an accepted out come to MURDER you. This is the problem, too many Police depts have adopted a Military war like view of how to deal with innocent civilians that no longer includes To Protect & Serve. In this day & time with technology there is never any Excuse for Murdering an innocent family including their pets in their own home by mistake or other wise.

    I have not read any post or stated myself that is accepted for anyone to come and murder you. The simple fact is if a legal warrant is served in a tactical manner on your home and you raise a firearm you will probably be shot. If it is a gang of thieves dressed as cops and you do nothing you may be injured or killed, it is a truly a no win situation either way. I do not know an answer for as long as there are people intent on committing crimes LE has a duty to react to it.
    LE cannot water down tactics and simply knock on a door and wait for the guy to answer. The criminal element has dictated the LE response not the other way around.

    You cannot stop doing something just because the criminal element copy it. In my home state they had the blue light rapist. He had a blue light on the dash and would make a traffic stop on a female and then sexually assault her. They could not stop making traffic stops because of it. They did implement procedures where lone females when in doubt would wait to stop at a public area without penalty but guess what the next thing you know you have some 6'4 guy who flees from an officer and when he was stopped his first words were "I wasn't fleeing I thought it was the blue light rapist and I was trying to get to a public place".
    If your Assailant/s aren't punished for Murdering you in your home that in itself means it is accepted practice. It isn't a legal warrant just because people LIE or make a mistake when they swear their oath to a judge since we are talking about Innocent people defending against Professionally Trained Hit Teams of unknown origin at the time as far as the victims are concerned. Innocent Law abiding people never expect a TACTICAL HIT TEAM to enter their house or didn't used to. I would never try to hurt anyone that wasn't trying to hurt me first. You notice I said anyone not just LEOs because I value all innocent life.

    If it was about safety with traffic stops we wouldn't even have unmarked cruisers but it is in reality more about $$$$s. As for stopping SORRY I am a 6' tall Martial Arts trained man but if I don't know the car pulling me over is a real LEO I will not just pull over either without verification. What I will do is let the Alleged LEO know I see them & hopefully they will understand since they don't even look like a LEO & they should know it since anyone can purchase Lights.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    But the flip side of that is that to the LEOs serving the warrant there is no difference between you and the heavily armed drug dealer. They are not serving warrants to get their jollies. Most of the officers I know hate warrant service. Especially high risk warrants. They get paid just as much to write a handicap parking violation ticket as they do to kick a door in. They are much more likely to get killed or crippled on a warrant service than they are writing a parking ticket. Not much upside for them and a whole lot of potential downside.

    Now unless you believe they are going around and hitting incorrect locations intentionally I assume you would agree that the officers that mistakenly hit a house are reasonable in their belief (based on the information they have at the time) that someone in that house is potentially dangerous or might be inclined to destroy evidence which is why they are forcing entry. They are there as a result of an
    investigation and a judicial process that is conducted by people that do these things for a living.
    So, I ask you, based on that reasonable belief if you present armed resistance to the officers serving a warrant at your house how should they react? And why is your belief that they are criminals coming through your door any more reasonable than their belief that you are a criminal?
    Yes there is a BIG Difference innocent people never signed up for the danger & aren't paid for it either & in this scenario are the only innocent victims. As a LEO you knew the risk or should have before you took the oath same as Fireman, Soldiers etc...

    Also in this scenario the only acceptable injury or loss of life is that of the intruder/s whoever it is IMO. Everyone keeps forgetting we are talking about when LEOs make a mistake & forcibly enter an innocent persons home with either LIEs, bad intel, incompetence etc etc... doesn't matter which cover up excuse is used. In this situation you are in all reality acting as a Hit Squad with full intent to do serious harm to the occupants if they don't just lay down even though you have startled them. Criminals are always prepared to deal with a possible attack innocent people aren't as prepared for possible good guys wanting to do them harm in their home.

    I really hope I never have to deal with this scenario but I can say if I live there is an old saying “An EYE for an EYE”.

    As for my belief you are a Criminal if you are trying to bust in, it isn't a belief it is a fact if I am a law abiding person in my home no matter the excuse you are a Criminal IMO whatever the outcome.

    My suggestion to all is use technology against them the same way recorders are proving many times the good guys aren't really the good guys all the time. Our best chance is to have beefed up security in place to give us a fighting chance against both Good (Unfortunately) & Bad Guys & Im not just talking about weapons alone. As for this belief you will 100% lose based on training & numbers I have never been one to give up although I am a 100% Pessimist by nature so I always plan for the worst case Scenario.

    In a Nut Shell no innocent victim shouldn't be subject to any type of charges if they committed no crime in the first place even if a LEO is injured or worse. In this scenario they should have 100% Immunity for defending their Family & Home. I also know this will never happen because it would mean admitting there is a problem with Abuse of Powers Regarding Warrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    At what scale? Do we have a number yet of how many times the wrong house was hit?
    I would bet money that no matter the number if the victims could talk they would say it was one too many in their case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver210 View Post
    I would bet money that no matter the number if the victims could talk they would say it was one too many in their case.
    Yes but Chevy-SS spoke of this incredible scale like it was a big number. Out of one hundred twenty five million homes and over three hundred million population how many of anything in a single year does it take to be "this incredible scale"?
    If there were an equal number of people killed in hunting accidents each year would you argue that hunting(but not trapping) should be banned because the founding fathers would not have have contemplated those deaths on this incredible scale?

    I am not saying I think the loss of life on either side is acceptable. I say it sucks but that is life. Nobody ever said life is fair and we all know bad things happen to good people, that is part of why we carry right? I agree with you that the homeowner should not face charges if officers hit the wrong house and they resist. I just don't think too many people are going to survive the encounter to enjoy the not facing charges part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Yes but Chevy-SS spoke of this incredible scale like it was a big number. Out of one hundred twenty five million homes and over three hundred million population how many of anything in a single year does it take to be "this incredible scale"?
    If there were an equal number of people killed in hunting accidents each year would you argue that hunting(but not trapping) should be banned because the founding fathers would not have have contemplated those deaths on this incredible scale?

    I am not saying I think the loss of life on either side is acceptable. I say it sucks but that is life. Nobody ever said life is fair and we all know bad things happen to good people, that is part of why we carry right? I agree with you that the homeowner should not face charges if officers hit the wrong house and they resist. I just don't think too many people are going to survive the encounter to enjoy the not facing charges part.
    You are correct but LEOs shouldn't be the cause of bad things happening to good people.

    An innocent person being killed in an unforeseeable accident is one thing but a innocent person being murdered in their house is another thing all together. I am & have always been law abiding but if me or my family including my pets was ever hurt or worse Im not sure I would or could ever accept a paid vacation as a fitting punishment.

    I think I could keep my self from becoming a vigilante because unlike many I have a "Conscience" but I wouldn't rest until the person PAID in someway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As far as proof that evidence may be destroyed, that is pretty easy in some cases. How long do you think it would take to flush a pound of sugar down the sink or the toilet? So yes a forced entry type warrant service is going to be much more likely in a drug case than when looking for stolen car parts.
    Since when is possession of a pound of sugar illegal? Did Michelle already get that one through another BO executive order? I know Congress did not pass it. Or are you in NYC and Bloomberg actually got this one through?
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