Looking Back - Scary Memories

It's interesting how we can look back at little incidents in the past and even analyzing them from the perspective of time realize the potential outcomes which could have been bad, and thankfully were not. Several years ago, two fellow photographer friends and I went to Fair Park in Dallas to do a little shooting (shutters, of course :tongue: ). That area of Dallas, though a somewhat "touristy" part of town is still in a part of the city which is, well you can draw easy conclusions... Broad daylight and on a Saturday.

Walking from one part of the park area, actually out in the parking lot area, we saw a guy walking who fit the typical "homeless panhandler" stereotype. And with good reason. Sure enough though he originally was some distance from us, he altered his path to intersect ours and approached us. Always leery of such encounters I at least, and I know one of my friends feeling the same, just hoped for the best. And yes, I do profile and won't make any apologies for it so though I hoped for the best, there was a little concern felt.

No, none of us were armed and even at the time I wished I was. Of course I am now and one of the two friends has his CCW in the channel and is just waiting for it to arrive. The other friend, though I would not call him an anti-gun person as such, is not pro-gun when it comes to his own involvement. Likewise, I see him to be a little more "trusting" of his fellow man.

Here are the three of us, with between the three of us, a good six to seven thousand dollars worth of probably easily fencable camera gear. The guy engaged us in conversation which we accommodated and he eventually went on his way. It turned out ok. The question I have had and have talked it over since with just my fellow gun liking friend is did we stand at any real risk or was the guy truly, as he claimed a repentant former lowlife. No, I'm not all that trusting of claims people may make as they can be manipulative with the goal of getting inside your guard. Did he size us up and have cause to question his risk with us? After all, he did not know that we were unarmed. Of course we will never know. Certainly my one friend and I will never be caught in a situation like that again unarmed.

And it is one more glaring proof that in spite of range based scenarios of accuracy practice at distances of 20 to 30 feet and beyond, here we were within almost arms reach of the guy. He came up to us. We didn't go to him.

I'm not sure what the difference would have been if you were armed. Certainly you would not draw down on the person as he approached the three of you. And Texas is concealed only, so OC is not an option as a deterrent. Had you been armed, the weapon may have prevented a bad ending, but it may not have prevented a bad start.

I might be missing the point, sorry.

I would have had my head on a swivel looking for an accomplice or two of his to randomly walk up and try jacking some of the equipment.
Next time point to the soup kitchen down the road and hightail it in the quickest direction away from these dudes.
You cannot discern quick enough which ones are harmless, and which ones are there to do you ill-will in the matter of time it takes for them to get the best of you,.
IF, IF you were armed, and NOT schlepping all that vulnerable equipment/ or had a family with you, then perhaps stick around for the fun.

You talked to a homeless man? That's all I got from this :/

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Originally Posted by danwdooley

... in spite of range based scenarios of accuracy practice at distances of 20 to 30 feet and beyond, here we were within almost arms reach of the guy.

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Basic everyday situational scenarios is by far the most important practice to get. It happens each day. It happens all around us. It's how the vast majority of encounters with others is going to start. I'm all for the range and accuracy practice, but that's only one small part of dealing with such stuff as it arises.

IMO, if the hairs on your neck are rising, and particularly if you're with others and confirm they're rising on their necks as well, then it's hard to accept allowing an unknown, apparently "scruffy" sort to get within arm's length. Particularly when it's clear that person redirected to make a line for you. I'm all for having interesting conversation, but there's a time and place for it, and a manner in which it's basically acceptable and not a risk. Within in-your-face reach ain't it.

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Originally Posted by Burns

You talked to a homeless man? That's all I got from this :/

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In a three on one as well....:wink:

I wish we could define the settings of all circumstances which confront us. Was this a potentially bad occurrence? I'll never know. I do hope it was not and I hope that we simply "got lucky" and the guy decided not to take any actions which we would have all regretted. What could we have done to avoid the encounter? It's a mostly unpopulated piece of ground. It's broad daylight and we're simply passing from Point A to Point B. Nothing particularly scary about the landscape. It's just that at that time, of all the pedestrians who might pass back and forth there throughout the day, it just happened to be a time when the three of us were alone.

The guy approached us. Other than just a "I hope he's not coming to us" thought there was at the moment nothing to cause the back of the neck hairs to rise. Even during the encounter, there was not, but I was mentally on the alert for any warning change to occur. I stood a little back from my friends (by a couple of feet or so) and one friend being the more talkative participated in most of the chit-chat.

The point has been raised that if we had been armed, it might not have ended any differently had the situation turned bad. While that is true, especially considering that we might have had to draw on a gun, the question arises, then "what's the point?" Under what circumstances in a street confrontation is being armed going to aid you?

No, had we been armed there never would have been a consideration for presenting the challenge at a great distance. Especially if the individual has not made known his ill intent. Do we simply challenge every stranger who approaches with a "stand back!" Well maybe there is a time for that but we had no justification for that. After all, the guy might have approached, simply asked for some spare change, took it and left. We had no way of knowing. The only thing I did know was that it was possible that the guy might be engaging us in conversation with the intent of checking us out to see if he felt it prudent to take it a step further. At this point we're sort of in a bind with little recourse other than to keep alert. The mental message, at least for me was that little voice, saying, "you know, situations like this should motivate you to take the steps to protect yourself." I do know this, though at the time there would have been little we could have done about the situation, had the tone of his voice or other verbal or physical language suggested that something was about to change, both I and my other friend who is also a pro-gun, pro-SD guy had we been armed we would have stood at least a chance of taking command of the situation.

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Originally Posted by danwdooley

I wish we could define the settings of all circumstances which confront us. Was this a potentially bad occurrence? I'll never know. I do hope it was not and I hope that we simply "got lucky" and the guy decided not to take any actions which we would have all regretted. What could we have done to avoid the encounter? It's a mostly unpopulated piece of ground. It's broad daylight and we're simply passing from Point A to Point B. Nothing particularly scary about the landscape. It's just that at that time, of all the pedestrians who might pass back and forth there throughout the day, it just happened to be a time when the three of us were alone.

The guy approached us. Other than just a "I hope he's not coming to us" thought there was at the moment nothing to cause the back of the neck hairs to rise. Even during the encounter, there was not, but I was mentally on the alert for any warning change to occur. I stood a little back from my friends (by a couple of feet or so) and one friend being the more talkative participated in most of the chit-chat.

The point has been raised that if we had been armed, it might not have ended any differently had the situation turned bad. While that is true, especially considering that we might have had to draw on a gun, the question arises, then "what's the point?" Under what circumstances in a street confrontation is being armed going to aid you?

No, had we been armed there never would have been a consideration for presenting the challenge at a great distance. Especially if the individual has not made known his ill intent. Do we simply challenge every stranger who approaches with a "stand back!" Well maybe there is a time for that but we had no justification for that. After all, the guy might have approached, simply asked for some spare change, took it and left. We had no way of knowing. The only thing I did know was that it was possible that the guy might be engaging us in conversation with the intent of checking us out to see if he felt it prudent to take it a step further. At this point we're sort of in a bind with little recourse other than to keep alert. The mental message, at least for me was that little voice, saying, "you know, situations like this should motivate you to take the steps to protect yourself." I do know this, though at the time there would have been little we could have done about the situation, had the tone of his voice or other verbal or physical language suggested that something was about to change, both I and my other friend who is also a pro-gun, pro-SD guy had we been armed we would have stood at least a chance of taking command of the situation.

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You made it home to tell your story. Thats a good outcome no matter how you look at it. Even without a firearm, you still have your brain, (which by the way is your most valuable tool) you could have commanded the situation. In your situation, there was no call for a firearm.

Let's see--three of you and one of him. Even unarmed, you had an advantage in numbers. Even encumbered with camera gear you still can use your feet and knees for defense. You DO have some empty hand skills, don't you? If you don't want to just walk away when the person approaches, the three of you should at least spread out so that he can't confront all of you at the same time. That way it puts at least one of you off to his side (or even his back).

Here's another thought: take his picture as he walks up. It might break his OODA loop.

Lastly, remember, most people are basically harmless even if they are a bit kooky.

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Originally Posted by Hoganbeg

Let's see--three of you and one of him. Even unarmed, you had an advantage in numbers.

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Oh I'll guarantee you, I know how to leave him dead on the ground without having a gun in my hand if push comes to shove. I'd prefer a little distance between us and that's where a firearm is an advantage (assuming he's not pointing one at me, I don't have that skill).

I've tried to tutor a guy at work about situational awareness using real life examples learned the hard way. It's pretty much hopeless. He persits in believing that gangs all stick together in a huddled mass and attack from a single direction. He refuses to believe that selecting a parking spot in clear view of a mall's entrance is a superior choice over a shady spot that is secluded or that using the first locker you see when entering a locker room will reduce the possibilty of it being broken into. He fails to grasp how BGs think and ponder why they behave the way they do. He thinks I'm paranoid. I fear he will end up an easy mark should he find himself in the appropriate situation.

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Originally Posted by Caertaker

I've tried to tutor a guy at work about situational awareness using real life examples learned the hard way. It's pretty much hopeless. He persits in believing that gangs all stick together in a huddled mass and attack from a single direction. He refuses to believe that selecting a parking spot in clear view of a mall's entrance is a superior choice over a shady spot that is secluded or that using the first locker you see when entering a locker room will reduce the possibilty of it being broken into. He fails to grasp how BGs think and ponder why they behave the way they do. He thinks I'm paranoid. I fear he will end up an easy mark should he find himself in the appropriate situation.

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He must first want to learn.

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Originally Posted by Hoganbeg

He must first want to learn.

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When he can snatch the pebble from Caertaker's hand it will be time for him to go.

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Originally Posted by PEF

I'm not sure what the difference would have been if you were armed. Certainly you would not draw down on the person as he approached the three of you. And Texas is concealed only, so OC is not an option as a deterrent. Had you been armed, the weapon may have prevented a bad ending, but it may not have prevented a bad start.

I might be missing the point, sorry.

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I think the point of this thread is to get people thinking about the potential of any bad situations they were in prior to getting their CWP.