McDonalds do nothing robbery

This is a discussion on McDonalds do nothing robbery within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ionracas Even if there was no weapon there still was a threat and I would have no problem neutralizing that threat but ...

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Thread: McDonalds do nothing robbery

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    Even if there was no weapon there still was a threat and I would have no problem neutralizing that threat but I think I would rather risk them making their first move than lose my gun, license and a couple of decades for a justified action. I say justified (in that situation) because even unarmed I feel a threat is a threat but that dosnt mean Im ganna go guns blazing at any threat.

    We live in a country where rapists and wife beaters are out on bail before the arresting officers shift ends. A society that will no longer tolerate capital punishment for a serial killer but will gladly lock up a citizen trying to protect his family. This is not a shot against the arresting officers but the legal system that does not back the laws they try to uphold.
    The legal system is flawed beyond repair. This is why we the gun owners must not only protect ourselves with our weapons, but also become lawyers in our own right. If you study the law and statutes pertaining to carry and self defense, then you will know whether it is a good shoot or not, and can make a split second decision based on that. A firearm protects your being alive to tell the story. Your brain decides whether your telling it here on a forum, or from behind prison bars.

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  3. #62
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    In Tennessee we can shoot to neutralize only if ALL of the following a present; Intent, Ability and Jeopardy. Under ability a weapon capable of causing injury should be present but the physical size of or number assailants can play a part in your descision.
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
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  4. #63
    Senior Member Array Fausty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    Greedo fired first, Han was just lucky.
    only in george's lame politically correct remastered and computer animated remake.
    pgrass101 and Ionracas like this.
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  5. #64
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    ...can play a part in your decision.
    That was my point several pages ago. There are wayyy to many things that I need to know about this scenario before I can give a credible answer. To the "double tap from behind" crowd. What if you, after shooting an armed assailant aiming a weapon at someone else, then discover he (she) was actually an undercover LEO trying to stop a dangerous felon? You just shot a police officer, aided & abetted a criminal, and are in for a world of disaster...no matter what you thought was happening. My CCW Instructor made it very, VERY clear. What I think is happening is a legal defense for my actions ONLY WHEN protecting myself or my family. When I involve myself in gun fire OUTSIDE of my DIRECT knowledge, then only what I know FOR SURE can be used as legal justification for my actions. It's a very well-defined distinction in Kentucky Law. Under those circumstances I NEVER intend to START a gunfight. And I pray I never am forced...to finish one.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    I'd do absolutely nothing in that scenario. I'm not a cop and I'm not a super hero, so I'm not required to go around intervening in any crime that may happen. In most robberies like that, nobody is physically harmed and the suspect is usually caught shortly afterwards. Just incase the BG can hit up the local dealer before he get's caught, I'm sure the money is insured.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
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  7. #66
    New Member Array timowen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Pretty cut & dried as far as I'm concerned. NOTHING makes you a LEO except...BEING an LEO. I'm not a cowboy, the cavalry or a Super Hero. I carry a handgun to protect myself & my family against life-threatening assault, with the option of providing aid to others depending on perceived circumstances. You said the felon used the "I have a gun threat" but you didn't say if anyone had SEEN the gun. I also don't know where I sitting in relation to the action and/or the exits. I don't know if I'm alone or have my grandchildren with me. I don't know if he's a screaming, tweaker maniac or a quiet, calculating career criminal. So there's a lot more details to the scenario before I can explain & justify my tactics & choices. If you're asking if I'll step-in to simply stop cash being taken from McDonalds, no. But if your asking if I'll step-in to stop a botched robbery that evolves into a death trap for me or others in the restaurant? Yep, I will.

    I agree 100% with the above and probably what I'd do.

  8. #67
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    That was my point several pages ago. There are wayyy to many things that I need to know about this scenario before I can give a credible answer. To the "double tap from behind" crowd. What if you, after shooting an armed assailant aiming a weapon at someone else, then discover he (she) was actually an undercover LEO trying to stop a dangerous felon? You just shot a police officer, aided & abetted a criminal, and are in for a world of disaster...no matter what you thought was happening. My CCW Instructor made it very, VERY clear. What I think is happening is a legal defense for my actions ONLY WHEN protecting myself or my family. When I involve myself in gun fire OUTSIDE of my DIRECT knowledge, then only what I know FOR SURE can be used as legal justification for my actions. It's a very well-defined distinction in Kentucky Law. Under those circumstances I NEVER intend to START a gunfight. And I pray I never am forced...to finish one.
    Our carry class was given a scenario that really happened. A guy walking down the street comes across a man in an alley stabbing a woman. He was CCing legally, decided to intervine and shoots the man with the knife. Was he doing the right thing based on what he saw?

    Well, the good samaritan and the woman both went to jail. As it turned out during the investigation the man with the knife was initialy attacked by the woman. He managed to disarm her and stab her. He was fataly shot, she survived.

    If you can legaly protect others under your states laws, be sure you know the facts first. Even if you think your doing the right think, you very well might not.
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    A guy walking down the street comes across a man in an alley stabbing a woman. He was CCing legally, decided to intervine and shoots the man with the knife.

    As it turned out during the investigation the man with the knife was initialy attacked by the woman. He managed to disarm her and stab her. He was fataly shot, she survived.
    Good example of how crucial it is to KNOW who's the BG in a situation. Can't know via assumption.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  10. #69
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    Our carry class was given a scenario that really happened. A guy walking down the street comes across a man in an alley stabbing a woman. He was CCing legally, decided to intervine and shoots the man with the knife. Was he doing the right thing based on what he saw?

    Well, the good samaritan and the woman both went to jail. As it turned out during the investigation the man with the knife was initialy attacked by the woman. He managed to disarm her and stab her. He was fataly shot, she survived.

    If you can legaly protect others under your states laws, be sure you know the facts first. Even if you think your doing the right think, you very well might not.
    It might be a good example and it might not. If the man got the knife from the woman and stabbed her once the threat was over he stop the attack but if he continues to stab her then it is murder

  11. #70
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    Read this article written by a LEO. He was off duty when a robbery occurred. Got in a gunfight with the BG. When it was all over a 9 year old girl was dead.

    The end result was that the suspect died, I survived, but a 9-year-old girl did not.
    None of the training scenarios, books, films, etc. that I learned from touched upon the fact that when you take that gun out and decide to take action, 9-year-old kids can get killed. Even if you do everything by the book, use good tactics, and are within policy and the law, the outcome can still be negative.
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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcvojak View Post
    Read this article written by a LEO. He was off duty when a robbery occurred. Got in a gunfight with the BG. When it was all over a 9 year old girl was dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by From the write-up
    None of the training scenarios, books, films, etc. that I learned from touched upon the fact that when you take that gun out and decide to take action, 9-year-old kids can get killed.
    Actually, prior to going after my CHL for the first time, I spent two years preparing my knowledge, handling, safety, accuracy skills and basic tactics to the point I was confident I could specifically avoid the proverbial 3yr old child being harmed, if ever I were forced to defend myself with lethal force.

    I'd sworn myself an oath that if I couldn't feel that strongly about it, I shouldn't and wouldn't carry; and if I didn't feel that confident I'd be able to avoid such collateral damage, I shouldn't and wouldn't carry.

    Though, of course, in this LEO's situation, it was the BG's shots that struck the innocent. Reality is, it was the BG's forcible felony that caused it all. But in the end, a child dead ... the only innocent lost. Which is itself a testament to the guy's fortitude and skills. Could've been far worse, had the BG just been a bit more wacked from his crack pipe (or whatever else it was that pushed him sideways along this path in life).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  13. #72
    Member Array bcvojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    A
    Reality is, it was the BG's forcible felony that caused it all. But in the end, a child dead ... the only innocent lost.
    Reading the article I think that you understand that the LEO logically realizes that this was the bad guys fault, but you also sense that emotionally he still feels some guilt, even though he was cleared 100%. I think moist people would feel the same to one degree or another. There would always be that "What if I had just done nothing, would that girl have lived?" question in the back of one's mind. . .
    Somewhere in the Pacific NW

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcvojak View Post
    Reading the article I think that you understand that the LEO logically realizes that this was the bad guys fault, but you also sense that emotionally he still feels some guilt, even though he was cleared 100%. I think moist people would feel the same to one degree or another. There would always be that "What if I had just done nothing, would that girl have lived?" question in the back of one's mind. . .
    Of course. I understand all such situations are the BG's doing, ultimately. And I understand the risk of collateral damage anytime there's any violence at all, whomever's shot/cut/blow did the deed. Your point's well made: we should all be able to balance consideration for nearby innocents with the stark appreciation for what could happen, in both the short-run and long-run, if these murderous cretins are allowed to simply go on their way. One thing is true, whatever else may be said: they'll continue their predations until stopped.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #74
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    If I'm stuck in a situation where someone has threatened to use a gun (whether I see it or not), I will make sure I am always one step ahead of the BG. I won't intentionally escalate the situation, but not being a quick draw artist, I have no interest in making sure that a fight I didn't ask for is "fair".

    I cannot envision a scenario (within this scenario) where he would get my wallet. Not because I give a crap about losing it, but because by the time he got close enough to me to ask for my wallet, my gun would be on him.

  16. #75
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    According to the OP, there is no weapon visible. I'm going to only be a witness in this situation, but if I can, will move to some kind of concealment. Now, if the BG draws the gun and starts ordering people around, all bets are off.

    If I can do so unobserved, I'll take my gun out of the holster and keep it by my side. If he tries to rob me, he's going to get my gun in his face instead of my wallet.

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