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McDonalds do nothing robbery

8K views 77 replies 47 participants last post by  GentlemanJim 
#1 ·
My ccw instructor (county sheriff) gave us this senerio and it has got me thinking, is it ok to do nothing?

Your sitting at McDonalds enjoying your bigmac and coke when a guy comes in and demands money. He is using the "I have a gun threat" Do you either A) let the money be taken (its mcdonalds a few hundred won't hurt their bottom line I promise) and simply call the police or B) intervien and start a shootout with innocents including children that could be injured or killed.

He said he would simply call it in, even as an off duty officer. I think his point 1)your ccw doesn't make you a cop, don't go around trying to be one. 2)you don't always have to draw and be very sure that when you do you've really used it as a last resort.

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
Unless there is a true threat to life or body I do nothing as long as he does not involve me. McD is insured for such things. If he tells me to do something (like get on the floor) or points the gun at me and demands money, he involved me and I will act accordingly.
 
#3 ·
At no point in this type of scenario would I consider drawing. The guy at this point appears to simply want money. Hell if he wants MY money he's going to get it with no fight from me. I don't carry enough at any given time to warrant risking my life.
 
#5 ·
I think your friend has a very valid point. I carry to protect life, not property, and certainly not some corporation's property. If the robber had not shown a weapon and acted in a manner that could be interpreted as a physical threat to myself or others and that threat is about to become reality, I probably would just sit tight and observe. I wouldn't act in such a way that could escalate the situation into something out of control or draw attention to myself.

There is another issue as well. Whether you really want to get involved even as a witness. I have had the misfortune of being a prime witness in a shooting case involving three victims. It can be a long drawn out process eating into your personal time. In my case, even though I could ID the shooter, and even ID the type and model of weapon he used, he still walked! It wasn't worth the effort.
 
#19 ·
While I agree with most of everything you said, and I feel it's a shame that the guy you testified against walked, you also need to consider the possibiltiy of retaliation from the BG if he does get convicted.He could come looking for you after he serves his time, or he may have friends on the outside willing to do him a "favor". All that being said, if no one ever has the guts to stand up for justice then things are just going to keep getting worse. The next town south of me is always in the top 10 in the nation for violent crime per capita. The biggest problem the police have in solving crimes and breaking the cycle of shootings/retaliation shootings is "no one ever sees anything". The shooting can occur at noon on the busiest street in town and there will not be a single witness.
 
#6 ·
Pretty cut & dried as far as I'm concerned. NOTHING makes you a LEO except...BEING an LEO. I'm not a cowboy, the cavalry or a Super Hero. I carry a handgun to protect myself & my family against life-threatening assault, with the option of providing aid to others depending on perceived circumstances. You said the felon used the "I have a gun threat" but you didn't say if anyone had SEEN the gun. I also don't know where I sitting in relation to the action and/or the exits. I don't know if I'm alone or have my grandchildren with me. I don't know if he's a screaming, tweaker maniac or a quiet, calculating career criminal. So there's a lot more details to the scenario before I can explain & justify my tactics & choices. If you're asking if I'll step-in to simply stop cash being taken from McDonalds, no. But if your asking if I'll step-in to stop a botched robbery that evolves into a death trap for me or others in the restaurant? Yep, I will.
 
#33 ·
^I'm kinda gravitating to this campfire^^^^^^^^^^
 
#44 ·
He starts pointing the gun at me or family, he gets fired upon, preferebly before he fires.
 
#8 ·
Agree with the above, let him have McD's money. If the situation changes, then deal with it as necessary.

The scenario says he's playing the "I have a gun". Does he really, can you see it, or is it still a verbal threat? Not that it makes a difference from an SD perspective, but it could change how you respond.
 
#10 ·
I do not know what your state's law has to say but in SC, not exactly a gun control state by any means, the law is very clear in its words. "Presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury". Someone robs a MAC---where was the imminent peril at that first instant? The law goes on to add that the imminent peril is "to himself or another person". Now the cashier in the MAC, who has a firearm pointed at them is the "other person". Does that now count for you using your firearm? I guess what I am saying is that the basic content of this thread has been asked many times and there is no simple answer. I would venture to say that in most cases these kind of robberies, whether a firearm is brandished or not, do not result in any deaths or bodily injuries. For the sake of money, it just seems to me that elevating the situation by bringing your firearm into play is not a preferred course of action.---Hey--to each his own.
 
#11 ·
it counts to where you are and can I get off a shot without endangering others. if I am in line and he just pushes me out of the way I might but if I am in the dining area and I don't have a clear shot then no. your instructor is right in a way but what is to say that they/he will just leave with just the money. who is to say the next time he robs a quickie-mart and shoots the clerk or a customer. trust me when they get away with it once it will happen again

Crime happens to 1% of the population so now you are part of that 1% and you did nothing so now the whole reason for carrying is pointless if all you are going to do is watch people be victimized..... You should have asked him..... Does that make you a sheep like the rest instead of a sheepdog?

I don't have to wonder what that 71 year old man was thinking when those two punks robbed the internet cafe; he was thinking I am not going to be a victim today! it's easy to say it's not my job and walk away but then there is going to be that little voice in your head that says "I could have done something" over and over.
 
#12 ·
Circumstances drive everything. For myself, I carry to protect myself and my loved ones. I will certainly consider helping those in dire need nearby if it's clearly a "dire need" type situation. Merely having money given as a result of asking doesn't rise to that level, even if that person hands out a note or states lives will be threatened if demands aren't complied with. A violent attacker with a deadly weapon out and actively threatening lives, however, is something else entirely.
 
#13 ·
We had a similar scenario on the written test I had to take for my CCP. If you see a gun or knife and the assailant is threatening anyone you can respond with deadly force if you feel like dealing with lawyers, LEO's, judges and juries. The law's theoretically on your side assuming it gets interpreted the same way you interpreted it. These scenarios don't always play out in court the way they actually went down and that's something to keep in mind. The person you thought you were saving might testify that he/she never really felt threatened. I wouldn't draw unless it became a Pulp Fiction situation.
 
#14 ·
Something to consider: we often assume in these situations that it is the cashier or clerk that is targeted. A coworker of mine was at a McDonalds in a big name university town here in NC. He just sat down to eat and a guy walked up to the man sitting in the next booth, pulled out a gun and splattered the customer's brains. This case was a targeted murder, not robbery, but we can't always assume as a patron that we won't be the target. It was also another case of the magic barrier failing.
 
#15 ·
Perhaps I missed something implied in the original post. If an off-duty LEO is present he is only going to call it in and go about the business of finishing his BigMac? Does it seem like "law enforcement" is becoming more reactionary and less preventive?

So the BG has his hand in his pocket and perhaps nothing seen in the way of a firearm. He may or may not have one, who knows. He robs the store hand in pocket and leaves. That was easy. So he goes down the street to another fast food joint, or perhaps a convenience store and pulls the same trick. This time the clerk inadvertently makes a move which spooks him and he shoots and kills the clerk.

That's right. Let's just let 'em get away. It's only money and McDonalds is insured anyhow.

I am not addressing you or I as civilian legal firearms license holders but if that is the duty of LE then we do have a breakdown in enforcement. Get up behind the guy and put your weapon to the back of his head and demand that he surrender. This ain't TV stuff. It's crime prevention. Prevent the crime and there will be less picking up the pieces after an emboldened amateur robber has just stepped up his game.
 
#17 ·
Get up behind the guy and put your weapon to the back of his head and demand that he surrender. This ain't TV stuff. It's crime prevention. Prevent the crime and there will be less picking up the pieces after an emboldened amateur robber has just stepped up his game.
Do you really think that making contact with your firearm against the BG is the best way to go? If the LEO or anyone else for that matter was going to intervene it certainly would not be at point of contact. It would be from a point of cover/concealment because in MCD's there is some of it, with loud verbal commands while you engaged the target. You can't get your gun taken away from you if you aren't in contact with the BG.

BTW, LEO's are civilians as well. I would venture to say that most of the LEO's that I know would probably stop the BG right then and there. They all carry off duty and have a general disdain for scumbags.
 
#16 ·
My ccw instructor (county sheriff) gave us this senerio and it has got me thinking, is it ok to do nothing?

Your sitting at McDonalds enjoying your bigmac and coke when a guy comes in and demands money. He is using the "I have a gun threat" Do you either A) let the money be taken (its mcdonalds a few hundred won't hurt their bottom line I promise) and simply call the police or B) intervien and start a shootout with inoocents including children that could be injured or killed.

He said he would simply call it in, even as an off duty officer. I think his point 1)your ccw doesn't make you a cop, don't go around trying to be one. 2)you don't always have to draw and be very sure that when you do you've really used it as a last resort.

Thoughts?
No brainer... take cover and go over my plan in case it escalates, but I'm not going to be the one to escalate it.
 
#22 ·
Unless the guy starts shooting people or looks like there's no doubt he will. Then imho definitely do NOTHING exception if your family is with you of course. If so get 'em out or at least to hard cover. Be a good witness.Be prepared to employ deadly force.Americans gotta stop watching and believing Hollywood's hero garbage...
 
#23 ·
That happened to me. I was sitting in a McDonalds in Denver when it got robbed. The most scared person in the building was the one holding the gun. That's why I won't open carry, I he had seen a gun, I'm sure he would have freaked out. I would say your instructor is correct. I'm not going to be the one that turns the robbery into a gunfight. Now, if the bad guy starts shooting, or lays a finger on my wife...game over.

The would be robber was caught within minutes and a few blocks of the store.
 
#24 ·
what does this say about the world today when we use McDonald's as a senario for self defense? sir; would you like a happy meal with that bag of cash?
 
#25 ·
Obviously, if he is robbing the store, he should be considered a threat, but as long as he focuses on the money and register and makes no signs of aggression towards the patrons(including me and my family), I would probably let him have the money. That is what insurrance is for. As your thread title suggests, sometimes the best protection for your family will be to do nothing. Well, not nothing, but whatever you can without drawing attention to yourself and family.
 
#26 ·
This discussion has good points on both sides. There is no one size fits all answer. For those who might take immediate action by taking down the gunman. You are possibly putting your family in jeopardy financially. Are you prepared to mortgage your house, sell off your 401 or cash in your kids college fund to pay lawyers fees?
You many in fact be endangering the well being of your family.

Now for those who say wait until your life is directly threatened. You have just given up any possible advantage of surprise you might have had before the gunman turned his attention to you. Not wanting to escalate or put yourself in any greater danger has just put you in greater danger.

Oh, and for those who say they would not take a life over property and money is property. Once the badguy threatens force it is no longer about property. He is threatening your life. You would not protect your life with force? Or if you believe that he is not threatening your life why give up your property. Just laugh at him and walk away.

Choices,choices.

Michael
 
#27 ·
If It's mcdonalds deal and I haven't seen a gun or he is threatening to shoot people that's fine I'll be a good witness,but if he demands my wallet it's gonna chang stuff,I have identification in my wallet that tells the pos where I live,I'm not a COP so I'm not going to arrest him,I'm gonna shoot his ass
 
#28 ·
My ccw instructor (county sheriff) gave us this senerio and it has got me thinking, is it ok to do nothing?

Your sitting at McDonalds enjoying your bigmac and coke when a guy comes in and demands money. He is using the "I have a gun threat" Do you either A) let the money be taken (its mcdonalds a few hundred won't hurt their bottom line I promise) and simply call the police or B) intervien and start a shootout with inoocents including children that could be injured or killed.

He said he would simply call it in, even as an off duty officer. I think his point 1)your ccw doesn't make you a cop, don't go around trying to be one. 2)you don't always have to draw and be very sure that when you do you've really used it as a last resort.

Thoughts?
First in bold: Yes, it is absolutely ok not to draw and shoot but that doesn't mean that you are doing nothing. If his bullets aren't flying yet and you don't feel threatened, can you be a good witness? Can you see if anyone's with him to drive he getaway car and get a plate number etc.? Have you seated yourself in a place where good cover, escape or a defensive position can be obtained if things do go south? So just because you're not shooting doesn't mean that you are doing nothing.

You have to ask yourself, do you really want to draw and put yourself in that position when deep down you don't believe that anyone's life is at risk? You have no duty to engage. It's called "personal protection" not "protect and serve." If you feel that your life it threatened then by all means, defend yourself. But a weapon that is carried by those of us licensed to do so does not have to be used in the protection of others. That being said, the law does allow a firearm to be used to protect the lives of others in most cases but you need to remember that you are responsible for every bullet that comes out of that barrel.

Second in bold is part of the answer to the first in bold and your instructor is on the money.
 
#29 ·
My ccw instructor (county sheriff) gave us this senerio and it has got me thinking, is it ok to do nothing?

Your sitting at McDonalds enjoying your bigmac and coke when a guy comes in and demands money. He is using the "I have a gun threat" Do you either A) let the money be taken (its mcdonalds a few hundred won't hurt their bottom line I promise) and simply call the police or B) intervien and start a shootout with inoocents including children that could be injured or killed.

He said he would simply call it in, even as an off duty officer. I think his point 1)your ccw doesn't make you a cop, don't go around trying to be one. 2)you don't always have to draw and be very sure that when you do you've really used it as a last resort.

Thoughts?
My thought (single, one only thought) is this:

Find this book: In the Gravest Extreme : The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection By Massad Ayoob.
You can get it through Books-a-million here for 12.95 + s&h

Additional thoughts: (wow, I had more than one... whoda thunk it?)

While you're waiting for it to ship, go to the local library and get a copy from them or through their inter-library loan program and read it a couple of times before you get your very own personal copy. The book will answer many many questions for you... It is somewhat dated in the selection of firearms, but all the firearms presented will suffice. Same with the ammo.

Special note: If you did not get the Justice League handbook surreptitiously handed to you at YOUR CCW class, you have not been initiated into the League (sorry 'bout that).

If upon graduating your class, you did not have to swear an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the US and/or your state of residence, you have not become a sworn officer of the government... Like a cop... or a sheriff, or even a dog catcher... ( sorry 'bout that, too... if that's what you were hoping).

Hence, you are an ordinary citizen who now has the option to carry a gun... Good... no, GREAT, for you..! Use that right/privilege wisely and you will probably never get it out of it's holster except for cleanings and range trips...

And, that is the goal.... to be able to return home to your tv, your wife, your kids... whichever and whatever... without having to defend yourself at any or every turn.

Those are my thoughts... on this subject... Good luck to you... Stay safe and "carry on."
 
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