Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? - Page 11

Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

This is a discussion on Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by smolck While I understand the point you are trying to make, I think we need to give more credit to our LEO's ...

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Thread: Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

  1. #151
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    While I understand the point you are trying to make, I think we need to give more credit to our LEO's than this. Despite how many rounds they may fire, they deal with dangerous people and situations every day, it is their JOB.

    I am in sales, I know each day I will present my products. LEO's have to face the fact that on any given day they may or may not come home and will deal with violent people.

    I shoot roughly 400 rounds a month. And I am a darn good shot if I say so myself, but this in no way makes me ready "for the street". Bravery and guts are not learned on the range, they are the deep down traits these brave men and women have that makes them stand up and fight for those who can't.
    I don't question their bravery.

    Just the training methods of the bureaucracy.

    Once upon a time, I bought a new handgun on a Friday afternoon. I went to the local FOP range to try it out early Saturday morning.

    RO tells me that night shift is coming by to shoot qual(*) and I could use the range after them.

    So, there are a few empty slots and the RO says to me "If you have a holster, you can shoot this with them". So I jump at the chance to see how well I'll do on their course. Bear in mind that I have never fired this gun before.

    So we shoot at paper mostly at 3 and 7 yds, which is fine. There are a couple of relays at 15 and 25 with barricades for support. 50 rounds, 2 pts each.

    When all is done and the scores are added, I shoot 98/100(*). Several of the shift barely passed in the 70% range, most were 80-85%. Even though geared for the lowest common denominator to pass, many barely did.

    A cop-friend later told me "If you can't pass this course, you have no business carrying a gun".

    (*) - In the back of my mind I wondered why 'night shift' didn't qualify at night?

    (*) - My one round that 'missed' was actually a high chest hit that was out of the scoring zone. In real life it would have been 100% (or probably not, since in real life, BG's don't stand still and let you shoot at them 50 times).


  2. #152
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    I can see the argument that by taking the risk of hitting an innocent bystander your attempting to eliminate the threat before he can do more damage than your single errant round might.

    Here's a hypothetical for you though. You take the risk and fire two rounds, the first kills a young child that ran through your field of fire as you pulled the trigger. The second takes out the gunman. When police examine his weapon they find that it has a broken firing pin and the round he fired 2 seconds before your first shot was the last he would have been able to fire.

    Will the parents of the child agree that your action saved lives or not?

    I seem to recall hearing that the gun of the gunman in the theatre in Colorado did indeed jam. Did he have the skills to fix the jam and continue killing or was the malfunction the cause for his exit of the theatre?

  3. #153
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Armchair quarterbacking made up scenarios (even those that mimic things that have happend in real life) is pointless save for how they illuminate how DC forum members think. None of us knows exactly what we would do in a given situation until placed into that situation with all the attendant stresses and variables at hand.

    Bottom line is that each of can only do what we believe to be right in the given circumstances. Dealing with the consequences of our actions is another issue entirely.

  4. #154
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    Armchair quarterbacking made up scenarios (even those that mimic things that have happend in real life) is pointless save for how they illuminate how DC forum members think. None of us knows exactly what we would do in a given situation until placed into that situation with all the attendant stresses and variables at hand.

    Bottom line is that each of can only do what we believe to be right in the given circumstances. Dealing with the consequences of our actions is another issue entirely.
    Sorry, but I don't agree.

    Discussing scenarios (especially REAL life ones), leads to a dialog that could help the next person who finds themself in a similar situation. I've already read at least a dozen threads of various forums where a member found himself in a SD situation and outright said what they learned from "discussions" help the prevail & stay alive.

    If reviewing & discussing scenarios was pointless I don't think you would see military & LEO utilizing the concept in their training.

    -

  5. #155
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Sorry, but I don't agree.

    Discussing scenarios (especially REAL life ones), leads to a dialog that could help the next person who finds themself in a similar situation. I've already read at least a dozen threads of various forums where a member found himself in a SD situation and outright said what they learned from "discussions" help the prevail & stay alive.

    If reviewing & discussing scenarios was pointless I don't think you would see military & LEO utilizing the concept in their training.

    -
    Considering that I am military with multiple combat deployments I can tell you that discussions are only one aspect of the training we often use. Discussions without follow-on hands on training (simulator, shoot house/kill house, etc.) offer little value to better understanding and, ideally knowing, how one will react in a given situation. Discussions don't account for the real life variables that occur. Most of the real life scenarios are not as cut and dry as they are here.

    I will caveat one thing in general, however: One can learn about what to do with respect to hearing or seeing something and having the luxury of even a little time to consider one's actions before proceeding.

  6. #156
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I target shoot with friends who spend all that time lining up the "little dots" and being very careful to caress the trigger as they aim at my non moving target. I will do the same some of the time but usually spend time at another range stall point shooting or at least shooting without spending time playing around with the "little dots". I may not be as accurate but they are all within the zone for a "successful defense".

  7. #157
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Sorry, but I don't agree.

    Discussing scenarios (especially REAL life ones), leads to a dialog that could help the next person who finds themself in a similar situation. I've already read at least a dozen threads of various forums where a member found himself in a SD situation and outright said what they learned from "discussions" help the prevail & stay alive.

    If reviewing & discussing scenarios was pointless I don't think you would see military & LEO utilizing the concept in their training.

    -
    Yep, visualization and mental exercises are good additions to live training. We all know that every scenario is its own microcosm, and that our training will have to be adaptive to the situation.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  8. #158
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    Discussions without follow-on hands on training (simulator, shoot house/kill house, etc.) offer little value to better understanding and, ideally knowing, how one will react in a given situation. Discussions don't account for the real life variables that occur. Most of the real life scenarios are not as cut and dry as they are here.
    I'm sure there are 1 or 2 on this site who do practice hands-on and shooting these various scenarios.

    I'm also sure it isn't very widespread, but that goes back to the average CCW/LE/Mil not putting in anymore effort to training than is required of them.

    Especially if they have to pay for it themselves.

  9. #159
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    If the OP had used understandable instead of reasonable would anyone's responses be different?
    I ask because I can think of numerous cases of police involved shootings where what happened was completely understandable but not acceptable.

    Michael

  10. #160
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Here is a poll we did on DC not a long time ago. ...68 percent said that 10 percent of CC'ers train realistically for SD.
    2 different assertions. The OP asserted that CCW'ers fire less than 50 rds/yr; I ain't buyin' it - especially the ones that actually carry every day as opposed to LEO's that are carrying every day and only shoot those 50 rds/yr. Not much concerned about the ones that only carry their permit in their wallet and nothing else.

  11. #161
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    The problem is that on this forum I would posit that many fire more than 50 rds/yr. Heck, I fire more than 50 rounds at a single range session (a lot more than once a year!).

  12. #162
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    2 different assertions. The OP asserted that CCW'ers fire less than 50 rds/yr; I ain't buyin' it - especially the ones that actually carry every day as opposed to LEO's that are carrying every day and only shoot those 50 rds/yr. Not much concerned about the ones that only carry their permit in their wallet and nothing else.
    FWIW, most of the LEO's I know do not carry off-duty.

  13. #163
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21
    2 different assertions. The OP asserted that CCW'ers fire less than 50 rds/yr; I ain't buyin' it - especially the ones that actually carry every day as opposed to LEO's that are carrying every day and only shoot those 50 rds/yr. Not much concerned about the ones that only carry their permit in their wallet and nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    The problem is that on this forum I would posit that many fire more than 50 rds/yr. Heck, I fire more than 50 rounds at a single range session (a lot more than once a year!).
    First, CCW forum members are probably a little above the average CCW holder. I will also posit that CCW holders have no more time to spend on gun forums than they do to shoot 50 rounds a week.

    These mystical '50' rounds: how are they fired?

    Are they shoot at stationary targets (much like LE/Mil qualification)?

    Are they plinking rounds?

    Do you use them to practice areas that you really need to work on?

    Or do you shoot them in drills you are already very good at to satisfy the ego?

    Or are they used in GOTX, shooting from unusual positions, low light, or something else that may actually be usable in a fight?

    If you think that CCW's actually 'train' for the most part, look at some of the replies HarryBall got on this thread in July:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...6-us-them.html

  14. #164
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    First, CCW forum members are probably a little above the average CCW holder. I will also posit that CCW holders have no more time to spend on gun forums than they do to shoot 50 rounds a week.

    These mystical '50' rounds: how are they fired?

    Are they shoot at stationary targets (much like LE/Mil qualification)?

    Are they plinking rounds?

    Do you use them to practice areas that you really need to work on?

    Or do you shoot them in drills you are already very good at to satisfy the ego?

    Or are they used in GOTX, shooting from unusual positions, low light, or something else that may actually be usable in a fight?

    If you think that CCW's actually 'train' for the most part, look at some of the replies HarryBall got on this thread in July:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...6-us-them.html
    You know where I stand on training, and like you Scott I was surprised....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  15. #165
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    OK, let's look at some of the responses (from just the 1st few pages): (Not trying to put anyone on the spot and don't think I took anything out of context, but these (esp LEO's) are enlightening)
    Glockman: Get a good quality piece, learn how to use and maintain it, and enjoy your life.

    Vaquero: I'm retired LE, and let me tell you, if you shoot twice a year at static targets, from a variety of positions, then you are taking your training as serious as most police officers. That's about all the training that most police officers get. Being a "gun guy," I would go out to the PD range on Friday afternoon for "open shoot," which means they buy the ammo and I shoot until my trigger finger gets sore. But I was lucky to see 4 or 5 other officers there, out of a department of over 1600 officers. ... Mindset means more than training, as long as you have a basic level of competence with your firearm.

    Glockman: ... both of these cover a wide variety of situational responses. Many of which have absolutely no practical application to a typical armed encounter a citizen is likely to encounter.

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