Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

This is a discussion on Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; When a threat is perceived you will lose focus of the background. This will happen to the point of not even seeing or aware of ...

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Thread: Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

  1. #166
    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    When a threat is perceived you will lose focus of the background. This will happen to the point of not even seeing or aware of the background. For example in the case of the NYC shooting the LEO'S may have not " seen" any bystanders

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  3. #167
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    FWIW, most of the LEO's I know do not carry off-duty.
    Says a bunch, don't it?

  4. #168
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    The problem is that on this forum I would posit that many fire more than 50 rds/yr. Heck, I fire more than 50 rounds at a single range session (a lot more than once a year!).
    I go through a couple houndred rounds on my .45 every trip.

    I shoot every couple weeks.




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  5. #169
    Senior Member Array 031131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    This question was triggered by my thoughts on the CO incident in another thread. If you could have stopped the shooter in CO right after he started shooting, but there was an innocent person right next to him that you might hit, what is the right thing to do?

    I am not 100% sure how I feel and am looking for honest evaluation, not platitudes about the basic firearm rules. What is the right thing to do, and what should you do legally?

    We know he shot 70 people. If you could have stopped it at 1 or 2, would it be worth it? Could you shoot knowing that you might sacrifice 1 person to save 11 more, or 50 more. Could you emotionally handle the one death by your hand to prevent more deaths by his?

    The family of the person you might hit would probably say don't do it, but how do you know that he won't just turn and gun her down next anyway? But they would ask who you are that you should play God and decide who lives or dies. Is it better for me to make that decision about 1 person, or let the madman continue to exercise that decision about many many more.

    Could you handle being villanized by the anti's and the hindsight is 20-20 people who would then not know how many lives you had saved, because you did not allow the madman to continue. There would surely be jail time for you if they figured out that it was your gun that killed this person, especially if the media got wind of it.

    I understand that as a random citizen we do not have the "responsibility" to intervene, we are not police, and many will say that my responsibility is to my family and myself, but even so, I feel at least some responsibility as a human to not let bad things happen if I am in a position to stop them. I guess this is part of my cost/benefit analysis on this type of sittuation. From the LEO or military in the crowd, how are you guys trained on this topic, and do they explain how that training might apply to average citizens?

    What do you all think?
    First I will say that 7 years ago I took an oath to protect my fellow Americans from threats both foreign and domestic and that doesn't end because my contract did.

    With that being said I value a smaller round due to this exact reason.
    It is also not so black and white. You could put yourself in a position for a clear shot.
    On a personal note if I was there and I ended up having a loose round that hurt someone, well it is not alright but how many injurys did I prevent in taking such action?
    I'm willing to accept that and any punishment to follow. Though when weighed I don't believe it would be harsh given the circumstance. Nor do I believe I would have hit an unattended target. This is not to say that I wouldn't feel horrible if I did injury someone when I did not mean to of course.

    Just my 2 cents

    I didn't read any other posts but did skim a few. Yes we are not the cops but will we sit there and become victims? Will we sit there and watch others become victims?
    I'm not getting a ccw so I can become a victim and watch those around me become victims.

    Hiding behind a chair just suites some better then others.

  6. #170
    Member Array Poseidon's Avatar
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    Never. Think of a bullet as a flying lawsuit.

  7. #171
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    It amazes me that so many largely anonymous internet posters would so passionately try to deny people permission to fight for their lives. Happily, I don't dwell in or on the fears, insecurities and inadequacies of others. My advice is WTSHF, do whatever you are up for. You need no one's approval to defend your life.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  8. #172
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    It amazes me that so many largely anonymous internet posters would so passionately try to deny people permission to fight for their lives. Happily, I don't dwell in or on the fears, insecurities and inadequacies of others. My advice is WTSHF, do whatever you are up for. You need no one's approval to defend your life.
    There are basicaly two situations.
    1. You fear for your life or loved ones and are doing what you feel you need to do.-I can't fault a person in this situation if some bystander gets injured. You did not put yourself in the situation to fire. What the law says in different states is a different issue.

    2. You try to play hero when there is a safe avenue of escape and no threat to your life or loved ones. You decide to stay and bring the fight to the BG. (Aurora). In the process you shoot bystanders by accident or because of your direct actions you draw fire from the BG causing casualiteis.-this situation the individual is wrong. Of course folks can what if it for days after the fact how many people and who they were that were killed and what would have happened if the GG did not engage the BG.

    The difference between the two is in the former the GG has no choice but to fight back. In the second case the GG, by being proactive when he could have fled, is part of the cause of the casualities.
    Poseidon likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  9. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    There are basicaly two situations.
    1. You fear for your life or loved ones and are doing what you feel you need to do.-I can't fault a person in this situation if some bystander gets injured. You did not put yourself in the situation to fire. What the law says in different states is a different issue.

    2. You try to play hero when there is a safe avenue of escape and no threat to your life or loved ones. You decide to stay and bring the fight to the BG. (Aurora). In the process you shoot bystanders by accident or because of your direct actions you draw fire from the BG causing casualiteis.-this situation the individual is wrong. Of course folks can what if it for days after the fact how many people and who they were that were killed and what would have happened if the GG did not engage the BG.

    The difference between the two is in the former the GG has no choice but to fight back. In the second case the GG, by being proactive when he could have fled, is part of the cause of the casualities.
    Like I said, whatever one is up for.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  10. #174
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Like I said, whatever one is up for.
    IMO it is not what one is up for (unless THAT individual or his loved ones are in imminent danger with no way to retreat). Some folks are just plain idiots. I do not want an idiot going in and by HIS actions draws the fire of the BG toward my family and they get killed. I will let fate and my wifes skills dictate if she lives or not (she carries and is VERY good and well trained in shoothouses.) Not some num nut who barges into a situation thinking he is the next Rambo.

    Now, that is not saying to not take a shot if YOU are right there and can end it.

    Sorry, but the fact is folks do not train realisticaly, not enough, and most of the population has no common sense. A CCP means that you are not a felon or wife beater and can put x amount of bullets into a static target which many of us can do off hand and blind in both eyes.

    Because someone feels they are "up to it" does not mean they won't make things worse.

    And, one thing about this whole thread is the assumption folks can legally carry whereever the active shooter situation develops. If that is the case you do not need to play Rambo and run toward the fray, let the folks that are already there and presumably some would be armed take care of it.

    You got your gun out running toward my general direction during an active shooter situation will most likely get you killed by my bullet.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    IMO it is not what one is up for (unless THAT individual or his loved ones are in imminent danger with no way to retreat). Some folks are just plain idiots. I do not want an idiot going in and by HIS actions draws the fire of the BG toward my family and they get killed. I will let fate and my wifes skills dictate if she lives or not (she carries and is VERY good and well trained in shoothouses.) Not some num nut who barges into a situation thinking he is the next Rambo.

    Now, that is not saying to not take a shot if YOU are right there and can end it.

    Sorry, but the fact is folks do not train realisticaly, not enough, and most of the population has no common sense. A CCP means that you are not a felon or wife beater and can put x amount of bullets into a static target which many of us can do off hand and blind in both eyes.

    Because someone feels they are "up to it" does not mean they won't make things worse.

    And, one thing about this whole thread is the assumption folks can legally carry whereever the active shooter situation develops. If that is the case you do not need to play Rambo and run toward the fray, let the folks that are already there and presumably some would be armed take care of it.

    You got your gun out running toward my general direction during an active shooter situation will most likely get you killed by my bullet.
    Why would you refuse to engage an active shooter trying to kill you, yet threaten to kill someone trying to stop him???
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  12. #176
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Why would you refuse to engage an active shooter trying to kill you, yet threaten to kill someone trying to stop him???
    What?! When did I say to not protect yourself...just show me once, I said that....even hiinted at it? Did you even bother reading my posts or did you just skim them looking for something idiotic and untrue to post?
    What part of this statement did you not understand?
    (unless THAT individual or his loved ones are in imminent danger with no way to retreat).
    How many times can I be perfectly clear that if your life in in danger and you perceive so then you must do anything you can to survive.

    Good grief............

    And this part
    yet threaten to kill someone trying to stop him???
    What on earth are you talking about? This was what I said:
    ou got your gun out running toward my general direction during an active shooter situation will most likely get you killed by my bullet.
    Hyperbole to be sure. If you can't figure out what I meant then I will explain it to you in easily understood terms when I have the time. Figure it out from all of the other posts what I mean. It means that if someone is playing Rambo and they have a gun out in "my general direction" then I and anybody would have to deem that as a possible threat.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  13. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What?! When did I say to not protect yourself...just show me once, I said that....even hiinted at it? Did you even bother reading my posts or did you just skim them looking for something idiotic and untrue to post?
    What part of this statement did you not understand?
    How many times can I be perfectly clear that if your life in in danger and you perceive so then you must do anything you can to survive.

    Good grief............

    And this part
    What on earth are you talking about? This was what I said:
    Hyperbole to be sure. If you can't figure out what I meant then I will explain it to you in easily understood terms when I have the time. Figure it out from all of the other posts what I mean. It means that if someone is playing Rambo and they have a gun out in "my general direction" then I and anybody would have to deem that as a possible threat.
    What is the difference between playing Rambo and responding to an active shooter? There is a mile or two between most likely getting killed by your bullet and being deemed a possible threat.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  14. #178
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    What is the difference between playing Rambo and responding to an active shooter? There is a mile or two between most likely getting killed by your bullet and being deemed a possible threat.
    Focus on what I write otherwise I won't play any more. And yes, I am calling you out on this statement you made which you seem to have forgotten about :
    Why would you refuse to engage an active shooter trying to kill you, yet threaten to kill someone trying to stop him???
    It is a bold face lie which you seem to have forgot making. Next time you reply to me you address that statement, prove that I told folks that I would not engage and active shooter trying to kill me, and that I would threaten to kill someone trying to stop him. Just try to prove it....or be quiet.

    Look, you post whatever you want. I lost all respect for you. Period. You make a lie on top of another lie and rebut it with some nonsense instead of manning up and admitting your statement was not true.

    Fine, we can disagree on the issue. I don't really care about that, that is what the forum is for, intelligent discussion. Not taking peoples statements out of context and post bold face lies about what someones intent is and what they actually said.

    Nuff said. Take the challenge or man up and say your statement was incorrect....otherwise I am done with you

    Oh, If you try to go back and find a post where there is a typo, sorry about that. My posts have been extremely clear on this matter.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  15. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Focus on what I write otherwise I won't play any more. And yes, I am calling you out on this statement you made which you seem to have forgotten about :

    It is a bold face lie which you seem to have forgot making. Next time you reply to me you address that statement, prove that I told folks that I would not engage and active shooter trying to kill me, and that I would threaten to kill someone trying to stop him. Just try to prove it....or be quiet.

    Look, you post whatever you want. I lost all respect for you. Period. You make a lie on top of another lie and rebut it with some nonsense instead of manning up and admitting your statement was not true.

    Fine, we can disagree on the issue. I don't really care about that, that is what the forum is for, intelligent discussion. Not taking peoples statements out of context and post bold face lies about what someones intent is and what they actually said.

    Nuff said. Take the challenge or man up and say your statement was incorrect....otherwise I am done with you

    Oh, If you try to go back and find a post where there is a typo, sorry about that. My posts have been extremely clear on this matter.
    I'm trying to find the part I lied about, to no avail. You stated clearly, with references to numnuts, Rambos and idiots that unless one was directly threatened by the active shooter as in Aurora (not really sure where the distinction lies, given that such situations the bgs are shooting at anything and everything), one should not intervene. You further stated that if one did attempt to intervene in your presence and you saw the gun, you would probably shoot him.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  16. #180
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Why would you refuse to engage an active shooter trying to kill you,
    Your words not mine. If he is trying to kill me I am in imminent danger and as stated previously I would shoot......I am done with you
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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