Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? - Page 2

Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

This is a discussion on Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ionracas I feel that it is 100% unacceptable. I also dont think there is much to say as to why I feel ...

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Thread: Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    I feel that it is 100% unacceptable. I also dont think there is much to say as to why I feel this way. Could it be worth the life of one to save many? MAYBE. But that is not a choice I will make. If I go to jail but succesfully stopped the threat, I may feel it was a worthy sacrafice but not at the cost of someone other than the gunmans life.
    But what about the cost of the lives he took that you could have saved?

    I know, I hate it when people try to shift blame, and the blood would be on his hands for all of the deaths. What would you tell the daughter of the woman that you didn't save? But then, what do you tell the daughter of the woman that you hit accidentally? I don't know.

    I agree it is not our responsibility to act, we are not cops, but I still feel some "responsibility" for lack of a better word.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Have to disagree here. I would hold those that I highlighted more responsible. Contrary to how some like to think they are not military and not in a war. There is no way that the killing if innocents by the police should ever be considered acceptable. Now soldiers in wartime. Yes there are many times where innocents lives lost are acceptable.

    Michael
    First of all I am not talking about wartime..I think that is a given that there will be collatarel damage. Second of all did not list those groups as folks becasue they are highly trained (don't want to go down that road again about a CC'er being a liability due to lack of training). Third, it is never acceptable to have losses.

    Here is the difference with the CC'er. He is not called to the fight. He takes the fight to the BG. If he ends up killing the BG and 3 bystanders along the way he can;t claim victory and justify his actions by saying "it could have been worse". He didn't know. It is not his job to make that determination. The SWAT team or similiar team has the legal and moral responsibility to ensure that what they do is correct.

    I do regret saying 'sure' at the end of one of my sentences. It was not meant to imply that we do not take each and every life seriously. In fact, folks that do this professionaly go out of their way to ensure to the best of their abilities that their are no casualties.
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  3. #18
    Member Array urkrypt0nite's Avatar
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    I don't think it's acceptable, but I also don't presume it to be unavoidable in a situation like CO. I think something important to realize is that if I was there and I picked up one of your rounds through the arm; later on I'd shake your hand for putting some rounds in the BG and ending the threat, but then NCIS Gibb's slap you for pushing past your limits and missing the shot. However, I wonder if the average civilian is going to care that you "saved their life." It's a sue happy world and you might suddenly become very liable. Especially if it's a hardcore anti who's already crazed and upset about the BG shooting everyone.

    Food for thought

  4. #19
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    But what about the cost of the lives he took that you could have saved?

    I know, I hate it when people try to shift blame, and the blood would be on his hands for all of the deaths. What would you tell the daughter of the woman that you didn't save? But then, what do you tell the daughter of the woman that you hit accidentally? I don't know.

    I agree it is not our responsibility to act, we are not cops, but I still feel some "responsibility" for lack of a better word.
    I would feel responsible if I could have acted but did not, absoloutley. But I would rather live with that over taking the life of an inocent.

    Here is a scenario. I shoot, someone else gets hit but the gunman seeing the threat surrenders. Now what?
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Define imminent danger. If you are in his field of fire, but not a specific target, is that imminent enough? Or do you have to wait until he is targeting you specifically before you can risk it? Morally or legally?

    Legally, you will probably never get off, but to each of us, our lives and protecting our family would be more important than the other person, right? And it is not like you are trying to kill them, it is just a possibility that they might be hit.


    Edit: I'm not saying I feel either way, just asking questions.
    Fair enough. But remember I was answering to this from OPFOR:
    I would have to weigh the risks as best I could and, if I truly believed that putting one person at risk would lead to saving the lives of a dozen..
    In this case imminent danger is you feel that your life is in danger and you have no avenue of retreat. That is different than what I diasagree about with the above statement which implies the GG's life is not in danger and he makes the moral decision to take a chance and engage the BG knowing that an innocent can be killed.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    I don't ever want to have to use a firearm to defend myself or anyone else for that matter. Let alone having to think of hitting an innocent. I would like to believe that with each shot, I am 100% sure that it is going to find the intended target and not just putting lead downrange until the BG is down. It would be bad enough to have to kill someone in self defense. It would be extremely hard to live with the fact that I killed someone who was innocent. And a hostage situation? Don't call me unless I have a rifle and the cavalry can't make it for some reason.
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  7. #22
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    I am not very experience with rifles but in a situation like a crowded theater if I HAD to engage, I would want precision. The unfortunate trade off of course would be over penatration which puts us back to the point of this thread.

    Question: In a state where one can OC, Im assuming handguns only? Just wondering.
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  8. #23
    Member Array urkrypt0nite's Avatar
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    Seems like OC a rifle/shotgun is a sure ticket to being harassed by the cops and I wouldn't dare bring a long gun into a theater for the next five years. But I wouldn't mind carrying an AR-15 around with me if it was socially acceptable
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  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    First of all I am not talking about wartime..I think that is a given that there will be collatarel damage. Second of all did not list those groups as folks becasue they are highly trained (don't want to go down that road again about a CC'er being a liability due to lack of training). Third, it is never acceptable to have losses.

    Here is the difference with the CC'er. He is not called to the fight. He takes the fight to the BG. If he ends up killing the BG and 3 bystanders along the way he can;t claim victory and justify his actions by saying "it could have been worse". He didn't know. It is not his job to make that determination. The SWAT team or similiar team has the legal and moral responsibility to ensure that what they do is correct.

    I do regret saying 'sure' at the end of one of my sentences. It was not meant to imply that we do not take each and every life seriously. In fact, folks that do this professionaly go out of their way to ensure to the best of their abilities that their are no casualties.
    Great post, thanks for the thoughts. I tend to lean that direction too. I agree that they are called and we have not been, that is the difference. I'm sure those who are called would have the same emotional strugles afterwards as well, but that is part of what they signed up for. And that is why I am greatfull there are those who serve and are willing to make those hard choices, so we hopefully don't ever have to.
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  10. #25
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    Much depends on the exact circumstances. In that theater scenario if you "took out" the shooter and say...missed with "X" number of shots and one of your bullets passed through a closed door behind the Perp and took out the janitor....or one of your bullets actually passed through the Perp and killed same janitor.

    It might be a radically different story than if you accidently shot a little kid that was fleeing and happened to be in close proximity to the shooter.

    Of course...the life of one "innocent" is no more or less valuable than the life of another "innocent" person but, unfortunately we were not born with X-Ray Vision and we cannot always know what (or who) might be hidden behind the intended deadly threat.

    Which is where where qualified training and an ability to place solid hits comes in mighty handy.
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  11. #26
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urkrypt0nite View Post
    Seems like OC a rifle/shotgun is a sure ticket to being harassed by the cops and I wouldn't dare bring a long gun into a theater for the next five years. But I wouldn't mind carrying an AR-15 around with me if it was socially acceptable
    I would never actually consider such a thing of course. Curiosity wont kill this cat. Well maybe once altzheimers kicks in it might
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  12. #27
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    "standing beside the shooter" tells me I have a clear shot and a .45 hp will be heading down range. If the innocent was standing between us, then I'd hold fire.

  13. #28
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    First it will depend on the situation. Innocent victims die in war all the time. In a active shooter situation, it is a war of survival. If I am under direct fire from the BG and must return fire to survive, I will return fire. I will do my best to minimize collateral damage, but if it a matter of me dying or a stranger dying, I'm sorry, but I vote for me to live.

    I've put my asbestos suit on, so flame away.
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    This question was triggered by my thoughts on the CO incident in another thread. If you could have stopped the shooter in CO right after he started shooting, but there was an innocent person right next to him that you might hit, what is the right thing to do?

    I am not 100% sure how I feel and am looking for honest evaluation, not platitudes about the basic firearm rules. What is the right thing to do, and what should you do legally?

    We know he shot 70 people. If you could have stopped it at 1 or 2, would it be worth it? Could you shoot knowing that you might sacrifice 1 person to save 11 more, or 50 more. Could you emotionally handle the one death by your hand to prevent more deaths by his?

    The family of the person you might hit would probably say don't do it, but how do you know that he won't just turn and gun her down next anyway? But they would ask who you are that you should play God and decide who lives or dies. Is it better for me to make that decision about 1 person, or let the madman continue to exercise that decision about many many more.

    Could you handle being villanized by the anti's and the hindsight is 20-20 people who would then not know how many lives you had saved, because you did not allow the madman to continue. There would surely be jail time for you if they figured out that it was your gun that killed this person, especially if the media got wind of it.

    I understand that as a random citizen we do not have the "responsibility" to intervene, we are not police, and many will say that my responsibility is to my family and myself, but even so, I feel at least some responsibility as a human to not let bad things happen if I am in a position to stop them. I guess this is part of my cost/benefit analysis on this type of sittuation. From the LEO or military in the crowd, how are you guys trained on this topic, and do they explain how that training might apply to average citizens?

    What do you all think?
    Yes, it would be justifiable and it is survivable.
    This is the norm of all combat military persons. It is kill or be killed. If you do not kill your opponent, your opponent just may kill you and/or many of your service mates.
    It is a little different for civilians who were never trained for this but if one carries a gun for self protection one must be prepared to make sacrifices or don't bother carrying.
    This is what I think. YMMV :)
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    First it will depend on the situation. Innocent victims die in war all the time. In a active shooter situation, it is a war of survival. If I am under direct fire from the BG and must return fire to survive, I will return fire. I will do my best to minimize collateral damage, but if it a matter of me dying or a stranger dying, I'm sorry, but I vote for me to live.

    I've put my asbestos suit on, so flame away.
    Under direct fire I don't disagree.
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