Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

This is a discussion on Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Again, if you aren't willing to accept some risk, you need to put your guns up right now because this isn't the movies and you ...

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Thread: Is a stray round/casualty ever acceptable?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Again, if you aren't willing to accept some risk, you need to put your guns up right now because this isn't the movies and you aren't a superhero that can place every shot exactly where you want it. This is real life and the odds are you will miss.

    There is a difference between accepting some risk and taking low-percentage shots. If I had a clear shot at the CO madman and I took it and the bullet hit his ulna and ricocheted into an innocent I could live with myself (with some guilt). But the spray and pray and "if I hit a few bystanders but kill the bad guy, well, that's just the way it went down and I probably saved lives" crap that has been spewed around on here is different than that.
    Maine_Expat and Cuda66 like this.
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnlc9 View Post
    yep, read the post, and no arm chair quartebacking here ... I did not take the chance of hitting an innocent in the past ... and given the scenario proposed, would not take the chance ...

    sent from my sending device
    The scenario proposed was this: "Could you shoot knowing that you might sacrifice 1 person to save 11 more, or 50 more."

    That, again, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the scenario that YOU proposed, which was this: "Would you shoot knowing that you might injure/kill an innocent person in order to shoot an unarmed, fleeing man who is no imminent danger to anyone." Do you see the difference now?

    And Farronwolf is exactly right. There is almost no situation where you will have NO chance of "sacrificing" someone else. Bullets miss. Bullets pass through their targets. In short, crazy s___ happens when people are shooting at one another. If you think that you have absolute control of everything that is going to happen in a gunfight, and that every single bullet is going to go exactly where you want it to and perform exactly as you want it to, you are living in a fantasy world, and should get rid of all of your guns immediately.
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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    NEVER! You're always responsible for where that round goes and no one, situation, or circumstance else period, end of story.

    Just like when you get married and decide to upgrade to a newer model, you still financially own the late model for life.
    I think, therefore I am...

    <the Menace>

  5. #49
    Member Array tnlc9's Avatar
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    opfor

    no, I would NOT take a shot. given this situation. that is my answer.

    sent from my sending device

  6. #50
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    Um... Has anyone said that they would spray and pray? Or is that just a projection from those looking to justify their own positions?

    No one has said you are not responsible for your rounds.

    No one has said that every REASONABLE effort should not be made to avoid hitting anything other than the BG.

    No one has said most of the things the "absolutely not!" crowd is claiming have been said. How about a little more reading and understanding, and a little less knee-jerk, yes?

    And, just for fun, here is a scenario for you. Completely hypothetical and improbable to the point of impossible, but something to think about for those who have such black and white, absolutist views:

    BG comes into public place with lots of people. You are there with your extended family/loved ones. He immediately grabs a hostage, and has this hostage between his body and you for the remainder of the scenario. He orders everyone to lie down on the floor, in a line. You, being the gun savvy person that you are, recognize that he has a Glock 19 with a 33 round magazine. Still keeping the hostage between his body and you, he starts walking up the line, shooting people in the head. One, two, three...closer and closer to your family. How long do you wait before you take the shot? There is a hostage in the way, it's a "low percentage" shot that you will be able to draw, fire, and get that perfect oculo-cranial hit. Four, five....your kid is next in line. Still unacceptable? ABSOLUTELY unacceptable? Hey - your life, your choices, I don't care. I just know that there are situations (this example being a very exaggerated one) where there is no "good" choice, and that risk cannot be eliminated.

    I would NEVER intentionally put an innocent in danger. I would never take a "low percentage" shot unless the consequences of NOT taking the shot were far worse than the consequences of taking the shot and failing to achieve perfect results. Your mileage, of course, may vary, but I have no moral concerns (though the outcome, regardless, I would bear for the rest of my life) about my stance.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #51
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    This question was triggered by my thoughts on the CO incident in another thread. If you could have stopped the shooter in CO right after he started shooting, but there was an innocent person right next to him that you might hit, what is the right thing to do?
    Take the shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    I am not 100% sure how I feel and am looking for honest evaluation, not platitudes about the basic firearm rules. What is the right thing to do, and what should you do legally?
    Take the shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    We know he shot 70 people. If you could have stopped it at 1 or 2, would it be worth it?
    Yes. Even if I had to stand on one of the arm rests and take a hit in the process, even if I died from that wound, it's worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Could you shoot knowing that you might sacrifice 1 person to save 11 more, or 50 more.
    One doesn't think like that until the situation is over. In the moment, it's mere reflex...someone's firing a gun in my general direction, I shoot back.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Could you emotionally handle the one death by your hand to prevent more deaths by his?
    It's not easy, at all.....but yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    The family of the person you might hit would probably say don't do it, but how do you know that he won't just turn and gun her down next anyway?
    Lacking a crystal ball, I don't know. All I would know is someone's shooting in my general direction, and I would return fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    But they would ask who you are that you should play God and decide who lives or dies.
    I'm someone who would react to contact, that's who.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Is it better for me to make that decision about 1 person, or let the madman continue to exercise that decision about many many more.
    IMO you should take the shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Could you handle being villanized by the anti's and the hindsight is 20-20 people who would then not know how many lives you had saved, because you did not allow the madman to continue.
    Yes I could.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    There would surely be jail time for you if they figured out that it was your gun that killed this person, especially if the media got wind of it.
    That's not certain.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    What do you all think?
    I'd take the shot.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    And Farronwolf is exactly right. There is almost no situation where you will have NO chance of "sacrificing" someone else. Bullets miss. Bullets pass through their targets. In short, crazy s___ happens when people are shooting at one another. If you think that you have absolute control of everything that is going to happen in a gunfight, and that every single bullet is going to go exactly where you want it to and perform exactly as you want it to, you are living in a fantasy world ...
    Yup. The choice of being armed with a firearm is, in itself, an acceptance of the basic choice of "evils," risking potential collateral damage (however unintended and avoided) to achieve survival of a bad situation. Ain't nothin' for certain, in this life.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    This is a modernized variation of a problem posed to bomber crews in WWII. It is about competing harms. The problem posed back then was that there is a munitions factory located next to an orphanage. Bombing back then was not as precise as today so they had to decide, bomb the factory and level the orphanage as collateral damage, or not bomb the factory. It is unknown how many (if any) children are actually in the orphanage. If they take out the factory the war is over in a couple of weeks. If they don't the war goes on for years and potentially hundreds of thousands (combatants and non combatants) may be killed by the munitions manufactured there.
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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    This is a modernized variation of a problem posed to bomber crews in WWII. It is about competing harms. The problem posed back then was that there is a munitions factory located next to an orphanage. Bombing back then was not as precise as today so they had to decide, bomb the factory and level the orphanage as collateral damage, or not bomb the factory. It is unknown how many (if any) children are actually in the orphanage. If they take out the factory the war is over in a couple of weeks. If they don't the war goes on for years and potentially hundreds of thousands (combatants and non combatants) may be killed by the munitions manufactured there.
    Big difference between soldiers in war and armed civilians.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array sid1's Avatar
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    No it's not acceptable at all. Jail time would be the mild punishment living with it the rest of my life would be the worst for me.
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  12. #56
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    So, sid1 (and others), in my scenario, you sit and watch as 33 people (minimum) - including your spouse, children, mother, father, and whomever else you hold dear - are executed, rather than taking a shot where you MIGHT hit/injure/kill one person? Really?

    Wow.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    So, sid1 (and others), in my scenario, you sit and watch as 33 people (minimum) - including your spouse, children, mother, father, and whomever else you hold dear - are executed, rather than taking a shot where you MIGHT hit/injure/kill one person? Really?

    Wow.
    Sorry, missed your post. Yes, I shoot then. If it's going down like your scenario it's different than a chaotic, smoke-filled room with people running and screaming, also. I never said I wouldn't take the shot ever, just for the record.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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  14. #58
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    Yes, but the question in the OP didn't say anything about smoke, chaos, people screaming and running, etc. It said, simply: "Could you shoot knowing that you might sacrifice 1 person to save 11 more, or 50 more. Could you emotionally handle the one death by your hand to prevent more deaths by his?"

    This covers any possible situation where shooting MIGHT endanger someone else (which, if we are to be honest, is EVERY shooting). And a surprisingly (to me, anyway) high number of people said, "No, never ever ever never." So, I presented my scenario, as there are plenty of times that I can see where, to geekingly quote Mr. Spock, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

    I, for one, reserve the right to make my decision in the moment, based on the totality of the circumstances. If you (in the general sense, not YOU specifically) choose to make your decision now, and say NEVER EVER, then good on you. But don't expect me to, and don't think that you're holding the moral high ground.
    phreddy, 10thmtn and CPanther95 like this.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #59
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Based on what I've read from gunfight winners/survivors, I'm thinking that you may not even see or be aware of bystanders.

    Your mind will be focused on solving the immediate problem in front of you while avoiding taking rounds yourself. All other concerns will be secondary.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    Big difference between soldiers in war and armed civilians.
    What is the big difference.

    A soldier has to deal with the aftermath of taking a life and possibly an innocent life in the process just as a civilian does. PTSD is a real problem with soldiers coming home after the past decade of war. It has been a problem ever since wars have been fought.

    No good soldier is going to indiscrimantly kill for the sake of killing regardless of target. The same holds true for a CHL holder.

    Soldiers can be prosecuted for purposely killing innocent people during combat. They are not charged for collateral damage which is unintentional. Yes it is possible for a CHL holder to be charged for collateral damage, but in the scenario given, that might not happen the way it was laid out.

    Soldiers are sent in for the protection of our country or the innocent people of the country which they are deployed (humanitarian needs). In the scenario given, any CHL holder would be acting to protect further loss of innocent life.

    I fail to see the "Big" difference when it comes to one acting to stop further casualties whether hired to do so or doing it based on one's own moral code.

    If one bases their decision on the loss of freedom (possible jail time), or financial cost I can't get on board with that. If I had to explain to my son why we suddenly weren't able to live our normal lifestyle, or why dad was put in prison after an incident like was proposed by the OP. I am sure he would understand, why I risked my personal freedom or finances to save multiple lives. If not then he would just have to deal with it.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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