If the Aggressor Surrenders?

If the Aggressor Surrenders?

This is a discussion on If the Aggressor Surrenders? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Another thread got me thinking about this. You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. There is ...

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Thread: If the Aggressor Surrenders?

  1. #1
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    If the Aggressor Surrenders?

    Another thread got me thinking about this.

    You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. There is still a potential threat but not justifiable means to shoot. How do you address this until LEOs arrive?

    I would be a bit wary to the idea to have my weapon drawn on another person when LEOs arrive, but holstering and attempting to restrain could be a danger in and of itself. For that matter I am certainly not going to ask someone else to endanger themself and attempt restrain while I cover.

    What would you do? Is there a right response to a surrendering aggressor?
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    For me, it'd really all depends on the location, enviroment, etc. There's a lot of different factors that can go into this. Unfortunately, it isn't really a one-size-fits-all Q/A.
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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Shoot the hostage.

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    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Good point, I was a little vague.

    Lets say in public, during the day time when there are other people around.
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Actually had this happen to me thirty odd years ago. The bad guys decided not to rob me and went on their merry way. I was out on the river at the time by myself.

    Michael

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    I don't think there is a definitive way to handle this. If you think the gendarmes are arriving shortly, at some risk to yourself you could hold the BG at gunpoint; get him to lie face down, arms outspread and legs crossed, and keep your gun trained on his pelvis. Big risks here are how close do you get, is there a chance he's got a partner or a girlfriend who'll surprise you, will some bystander interfere (like misunderstand the situation and pull a gun on YOU), etc. If the BG is disarmed and not a significant threat to anyone else around, you could just get a good description of him and chase him off. Absent specific training, what you don't want to do is to get hands-on with a BG trying to cuff him or tie him up, unless there is absolutely no alternative.
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    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Thoes are exactly the concerns I have in such a situation but Ive never heard it discussed from a civillian perspective. I most deffinatley would not pursue someone who flees at the sight of my gun but it is a whole different situation if they dont.

    Another CCer would be a potential issue to if they arrive late and misunderstand the situation. I would like to think I could trust the judgement a person whos been carrying for a while or someone older but thoes mall ninjas?
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
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    Either they can run or go face down on the ground, arms spread, palms up, facing away from me, no talking. Then I'd consider reholstering. With one hand on the grip and the other on my cell phone, dialing 911. My eyes alternate between scanning my surroundings and keeping an eye on the BG's hands. Once Police arrive my hands slowly go up in the air.

    That's the plan at least, and you know what they say about those....
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. There is still a potential threat but not justifiable means to shoot. How do you address this until LEOs arrive?
    IMO, there's two things to keep in mind, basically: maintaining containment/control over the downed felon; and preparing for the arrival of inbound cavalry.

    It'll depend somewhat on specifics of the situation, including whether you're in a defensible location, whether there are witnesses, and so on. Every situation's different.

    Prior discussion on DefensiveCarry: Dealing with the Aftermath of a Defensive Shooting.

    From the LE point of view, LAAW Int'l has written Reporting the High-Stress Incident: Damage Control.

    From the carrier's point of view, here are points identified throughout my training (LFI, Ayoob):

    • Be aware of possible additional assailants.
    • Maintain distance from the assailant.
    • Do a tactical reload, to ensure you're not short of ammo.
    • If able to safely do so, get to cover where you're both able to maintain coverage of the assailant and can continue scanning the surroundings.
    • Call 911/dispatch, informing them of the location, situation, basic descriptions of the GG and BG, and notifying them that you're actively armed and covering the BG.
    • If safely able to do so prior to LE arrival, holster the weapon while still maintaining cover over the assailant. If not able, have the weapon at low-ready and not pointed toward likely path of arriving cavalry.
    • If a partner or witness is able to assist, have that person await inbound LE (to act as a bit of a buffer and to help confirm your identity as the GG).
    • When directed by LE to drop your weapon, DROP your weapon; if directed otherwise, do so. Failing to do this can get you seen as disobeying a lawful command and might well get you shot/killed.
    • Fully expect to be cuffed and questioned, until basic truths have been discovered.
    • Keep your comments limited to identifying you as the GG, that you're pressing charges, and identifying the BG (felon), his weapons, the victims, any witnesses. Beyond that, other embellishments and details are likely to not be in your best interest; speak with your attorney first, before going there (beyond those basic crucial elements).


    Haven't yet been in an active "damage control" situation yet, so I can't say if such steps have worked in my case. Of course, keep in mind each situation will be somewhat different, and not all inbound LE may behave as you plan or hope.
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    Member Array mb1900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Big risks here are how close do you get, is there a chance he's got a partner or a girlfriend who'll surprise you, will some bystander interfere (like misunderstand the situation and pull a gun on YOU), etc.
    This is why you need a CCW badge! Think about how useful it is: "No, sir, I'm just an armed citizen! Look, I even have a badge!" "I am not the mass shooter! I have a badge for the gun, whereas mass shooters can't get badges!"

    Also, you probably need an internet badge, which you'll show as you say the words, "Don't worry. We're from the internet!"

    dont-worry-sir-im-from-internet.jpg
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    Another thread got me thinking about this.

    You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. There is still a potential threat but not justifiable means to shoot. How do you address this until LEOs arrive?

    I would be a bit wary to the idea to have my weapon drawn on another person when LEOs arrive, but holstering and attempting to restrain could be a danger in and of itself. For that matter I am certainly not going to ask someone else to endanger themself and attempt restrain while I cover.

    What would you do? Is there a right response to a surrendering aggressor?
    Let me play "Mr. Realistic" here for a second....I personally carry a weapon for the defense of myself and my loved ones. With that being said, if I am confronted with a BG (Aggressor) who HAS a weapon, and his possession of that weapon has caused me to be in fear of my life and has caused me to make the determination that I needed to draw my weapon to protect myself and my loved one....then MY decision has already been made when I draw my weapon. Things will be happening in a "split second", not over 5 or 10 seconds. I will be moving off the X as I draw, and as I am presenting my weapon, I will begin to "stitch" the BG (Aggressor)...There will be NO decision to make as to him dropping his weapon and what will I do...I will shoot to stop the threat...

    Are you really going to draw your weapon...pause...say to yourself, "lets see if the BG (Aggressor) is going to drop his weapon", before you make your decision to act????? Sir, if that is your mindset, then you might as well not even draw your weapon...Just say to him, "Uhhh Mr. Aggressor, you might want to go ahead and drop your weapon, because I have one and I'm gonna draw mine, so if it scares you, just go ahead and drop yours now, before I expend the energy to draw mine"....

    You've been watching too many movies...You might want to concentrate in how fast things happen in real life and train accordingly...JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The original situation described
    You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. How do you address this until LEOs arrive?
    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    You've been watching too many movies...You might want to concentrate in how fast things happen in real life and train accordingly...JMO
    FS, I think the OP was clearly speaking of the aftermath, not of the encounter itself.
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    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    Good point First Sgt. Its not so much the movie thing at all for me, I have no desire to draw and see what happens either. I may be underestimating the time it would take to draw and shoot though. Im still learning of course and not afraid to admit that but if I do draw too slowly either Im dead or the BG gives up. The first of course is unacceptable but can only be changed with practice. Until then, knowing how to adress the later scenario if the BG didnt flee is important.

    Dont get me wrong, I agree with your point.

    Edit: I have no desire to draw and then WAIT and see what happens.
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    I still have the my handcuffs from when I was a Parole Officer. I added a set of thumb cuffs in case of a multiple attack situation. I keep them in the small storage compartment at the back of my Wrangler. I always have the key on my chain, right next to the very first P38 can opener I was ever issued as an Army ROTC cadet back in 1978.
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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionracas View Post
    Another thread got me thinking about this.

    You encounter a situation where you draw your gun. The aggressor drops his weapon and surrendors. There is still a potential threat but not justifiable means to shoot. How do you address this until LEOs arrive?

    I would be a bit wary to the idea to have my weapon drawn on another person when LEOs arrive, but holstering and attempting to restrain could be a danger in and of itself. For that matter I am certainly not going to ask someone else to endanger themself and attempt restrain while I cover.

    What would you do? Is there a right response to a surrendering aggressor?
    Do not count on this happening. (in bold) If you haven't already sent lead his way and are going to "wait" for a surrender, chances are you are going to be shot first and / or he's going to run, not surrender. It happens a lot faster than it plays out in our minds. If you've given him time to see your gun, think about it and drop it to surrender, you've also given him that precious second it takes for him to shoot you. Be realistic and don't screw around. Play it out in your head at full speed and you'll see what I mean or "YouTube" robbery shooings. Also thrown out in black and white in Massad Ayoob's, "In The Gravest Extreme."

    My suggestion is to shoot him before he has a chance to drop his gun if you have the shot. If there are people around, then that is up to you to weigh the risk on whether or not it's a good idea to take that shot. And last but not least, do you really want a "fair" gunfight? Are you asking him to drop it first and giving him a choice and time to turn on you? IMO a "fair" gunfight is bad tactics if you've made it that way. You have no duty to give him another chance. He's already made his life decision.
    Last edited by mprp; July 30th, 2012 at 02:55 AM. Reason: Spelling, but there could be more...
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