2 scenarios: dog attack/ambush with no weapons by multiple attackers

2 scenarios: dog attack/ambush with no weapons by multiple attackers

This is a discussion on 2 scenarios: dog attack/ambush with no weapons by multiple attackers within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, like I said, 2 scenarios: 1) Inspired by a fiasco that one person I know was recently in: He was walking back from the ...

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Thread: 2 scenarios: dog attack/ambush with no weapons by multiple attackers

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array wolverine181's Avatar
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    2 scenarios: dog attack/ambush with no weapons by multiple attackers

    So, like I said, 2 scenarios:

    1) Inspired by a fiasco that one person I know was recently in: He was walking back from the Detroit fireworks right across the street from Ford Field and Comerica Park when at least 8 randoms jumped him, beating the piss out of him with multiple blows to the head. As far as I know, they weren't armed, but 8 people on one person seems like it could be deadly.... also, this particular person was recently in a car crash and suffered a bad concussion, he's lucky he didn't end up way worse because of that fact, would that change the proper response?

    2) I'm walking my Rott (well, I ride the bike, she stays with) and another, presumably big, dog comes out of nowhere and tries killing her (as far as I can tell)... is shooting warranted assuming there's a clean shot? I guess I'm talking about big dogs that I'm not so sure my Rott could handle (She's not necessarily a big dog and she's a lover, not a fighter. Though I'm sure she could hold her own if it came down to it.)... actually, this reminds me, I need to get some dog mace ha


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    1) I would think that eight on one would reasonable put you in fear for your life or great bodily harm. Where I live that is justification to used deadly force to protect your self.

    2) I will probably get hammered for this. Where I reside you can kill animals that are harassing or doing harm to livestock. Not sure how some DA might twist that though.

    Michael
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    1) I would think that eight on one would reasonable put you in fear for your life or great bodily harm. Where I live that is justification to used deadly force to protect your self.

    2) I will probably get hammered for this. Where I reside you can kill animals that are harassing or doing harm to livestock. Not sure how some DA might twist that though.

    Michael



    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^


    To #1
    I don't think a Prosecuting Attorney would try you for defending against eight, especially if you live in a state that has a stand your ground.
    Better check your laws.
    Bernard Goetz got off rather lightly for shooting multiple thugs in the subway of NY with an unregistered .38



    Judge Crane sentenced Goetz to a six month jail term, five years probation, a $5000 fine, 200 hours of community service, and an order that he seek psychiatric help. On appeal, his sentence was changed to one year, with no probation. He served eight months. In 1996, a New York jury awarded Darrell Cabey $43 million in a civil suit he had brought against Goetz for his injuries.
    Bernhard Goetz Trial (1986-87)


    To # 2
    Where I live it would be SSS if some "large" dog came onto my property, or about the place to harass or menace us.
    Last edited by oneshot; July 31st, 2012 at 07:30 PM.
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    Situation #1. Due to disparity of force, I think you would be justified to use deadly force to defend yourself. DA might not agree, but I think I'd rather be alive and have him make that choice, than be dead and him not worried about it.

    On a side note: Why would anyone in their right mind walk the streets of Detroit by themselves at night?

    Situation #2. Let your dog take care of the problem. Your on a bike, your not in a position to take an accurate shot, as well as the fact that hitting a moving target, the size of a dog is not going to be easy to do.
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  5. #5
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    Scenario 1:
    The AOJ (Administration Of Justice) formula applies:
    The aggressors easily demonstrate "Ability" as their numbers certainly constitute "Disparity of Force"
    The aggressors are in close proximity to the victim, demonstrating "Opportunuity"
    The actions of the aggressors clearly indicate "Jeopardy" as they obviously mean to do harm to the victim.
    This situation clearly warrants the use of lethal force, if available.

    Scenario 2:
    Personal judgement must prevail.
    Myself, if I had a clear shot, I would not hesitate to take it. An off-leash dog with an obviously aggressive nature is a threat, not only to your dog, but very likely to anything/anyone else in the area.
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    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    I agree with others in the first scenario - disparity of force I think makes it justified.

    With the dog scenario, I'm not sure how clear cut it is. Is your Rott unleashed as well? I don't know if that would play into the whole situation. Down in S FL several years ago, someone was walking their dog on a leash. A toy poodle ran out of it's open front door and charged the leashed dog (I forget the breed) the leashed dog grabbed and killed the poodle. According to laws on the county books, the leashed dog was to be put down because it killed another dog. It didn't matter that it was being charged by an unleashed dog or that it was leashed. There was a public outcry and it was going to court to try and save the dog, I don't know how it turned out. Different scenario I know, but still has me wondering. I don't know if the law would support you if you if the dog wasn't attacking you. Don't get me wrong, personally if another dog was attacking my rott I'd protect her if I needed to but I may be in a world of trouble for it. Hopefully with her strong jaws she'd be able to defend herself, mine's also a lover not a fighter but I'm sure if the situation arose she'd defend herself.

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    1) pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow!

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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    I am so fortunate to now live in a remote area of a rural state. Eight people around here would be ~1% of everyone who was watching the 4th of July Fireworks! Roaming gangs exhibiting wanton, random violence is something I haven't incurred for over 30 years. However, I did once run into a similar problem with an ethnic youth gang at ~2:00 am near the Houston Ship Channel docks. Having just concluded my business with a departing merchant vessel I was walking to my nearby car dressed in sport coat & tie. 12-15 teens suddenly surrounded me in complete silence moving as I walked, not a word being spoken. Only the click-click-clack of several balisong (butterfly) knives repeatedly opening & closing. I didn't slow my pace but drew my Beretta 92 & aimed it directly at my car. As the moving circle of assailants moved closer to my driver's door it became apparent to the wide-eyed ones backing-up that the muzzle of my pistol was going up their nose if they didn't let me pass. The moment that opening appeared, my keyless entry unlocked my door and I was locked inside before they could organize a plan. The paint on both sides of my new Buick Electra 225 was badly gouged by blades, scraping deeply as I drove away. I thought it best not to stop an ask for their insurance company.
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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    #1 shoot

    #2 In the state of MI you cannot protect property. Your dog is considered property. I would say no shoot. However, if the dog is attacking you, shoot.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    #1 shoot

    #2 In the state of MI you cannot protect property. Your dog is considered property. I would say no shoot. However, if the dog is attacking you, shoot.
    What does the law there say about protecting livestock? The dog is property but it also could be considered livestock.

    Michael

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    2. When in doubt, just use OC spray
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Well, as we've seen recently, one attacker can cause fatal injuries with just one blow. Eight would get shot.

    If I'm attachted to the leashe of my dog, (what about 4 feet?) and a large dog attacks, he's also attacking me, bang.
    mlr1m and oneshot like this.
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    Ex Member Array wolverine181's Avatar
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    To clear some things up... he wasn't walking alone in Detroit, there were actually a **** load of people around. Would I have the right to shoot if somebody I was with got into his position and I was not being beaten?

    And yeah, my dog is on a leash. And, I'm sorry, illegal or not, I'll probably shoot a dog that I think will kill mine if it comes down to it, though I'll get some pepper/oc spray before I get a gun anyways.

    thanks for the replies

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    What does the law there say about protecting livestock? The dog is property but it also could be considered livestock.

    Michael
    Not sure about livestock in our state. I know they have block permits (kinda like a hunting license) to allow farmers to shoot critters harming there crops and heard, but in the scenario posted by the OP, I think you might catch some heat.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine181 View Post
    To clear some things up... he wasn't walking alone in Detroit, there were actually a **** load of people around. Would I have the right to shoot if somebody I was with got into his position and I was not being beaten?

    And yeah, my dog is on a leash. And, I'm sorry, illegal or not, I'll probably shoot a dog that I think will kill mine if it comes down to it, though I'll get some pepper/oc spray before I get a gun anyways.

    thanks for the replies
    In the state of MI you can defend a third party. In your original post, you said 8 on 1, if you were with your friend its 8 on 2, If he is getting the living snot beat out of him and you were in fear of great bodily harm coming his way, then I would say yes. I am not a lawyer. I would suggest you seek out a lawyer, or a MCOLES instructor.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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