Really. Even when they've criminally provoked assault and battery on others? Even when your jumping into the fray, "loyal" or not, is disloyal to all that we as citizens have historically held dearest in this country: that you should have the liberty to do what you want in the manner you see fit, so long as you don't harm others?
Originally Posted by frenchman
Here's a what-if. Let's say your friend (drunk or not) had criminally provoked the others to fight and attacked them with a knife instead of fists, killing one of them in a cold, blatant act of murder. How "loyal" are you? The point being, it's still a criminal act on the part of the assailant, and still criminal complicity to jump into the fray and be "loyal" to such as he.
Thanks for the responses.
I think many correctly pointed out that since he picked the fight, there was no winning in it... Only solution is to stay out of it. Thanks.
If my friends are the ones provoking /starting fights in a bar or anywhere else [ I'm way to old for that now lol] it's time to find new friends.
Originally Posted by frenchman
It's called common sense. You know?
I am not "leaving a friend behind" when I let them receive the natural consequences of their actions. I learned long ago that in fights, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes you lose real bad. As far as I know, every adult has also learned that lesson, so if that friend decides to see what the outcome of picking a fight will be, who am I to deny them that life's lesson.
As I said, carrying a concealed weapon is a de facto reason to avoid bad situations, drunkenness and stupid things like fights that are caused by drunkenness, arrogance or just plain stupidity, and if that friend tries to drag me into a swamp with him because he is getting bitten by the alligators he stirred up in the first place, I will have to politely decline. That is not cowardice, it is common sense. Loyalty does not require me to go to jail, lose my ability to work, and lose my ability to carry or possibly even own weapons in the future because someone else is stupid and does stupid things.
My motto used to be, "A friend will get you out of jail. A GREAT friend will be sitting beside you in jail saying 'man, that was cool!'" Now that I am older and wiser, I realize that was terminally stupid.
I grew up with my loud mouth buddy, and over the course of my life I got into no less than 30 fights because of his mouth. When we were 12, no big deal. High school, still not too big a deal. 20s, the fights started getting more serious and so did the consequences. 30s, it happened a couple times and luckily no bad outcomes for me. Now I'm 44...if he hasn't learned how to keep his mouth shut by now, he is going to take a butt whoopin (either by them or me). I now have way too much to lose (career, kids, everything I've worked for) to fight someone else's stupid battles. When you carry a gun, that's magnified 100 times. It's called "YOYO" or "You're On Your Own." Life is hard...it's even harder when you're stupid.
I wouldn't. sometimes we want to intervene. I do at least. but you don't know what's going on, you don't know who these guys are.
better leave it alone. I had this happen few times, and i'm glad I never intervened.
Folks, there is a time when physically intervening in a fight is necessary. I will grant that. The particular scenario in the OP would not fall in to that category for me.
It is obvious to me that the various responsed fall in to "young-man" and "old-man" groups (physical age is not actually a requirement). A "young man" has different priorities than an "old man", and the the various responses show that.
A little light reading for any who might be interested.
Amazon.com: The Little Black Book of Violence: What Every Young Man Needs to Know About Fighting (9781594391293): Lawrence A. Kane, Kris Wilder, Lt. Col. John R. Finch, Marc "Animal" MacYoung, Rory Miller: Books
We all make our own decisions, and I do not say that what is right for me is right for anyone else. Just be prepared for the consequences of your actions.
Find someone else to drink with.
I don't interfere in a fistfight and just let them duke it out. And I don't know for sure who is the antagonist and the defender. Only if it gets out of hand to the point where someone's life is in danger, then I do what I feel is right.
Actually, it would be nice to leave the gun at home and break up the next one by emptying a couple of cans of pepper spray into the middle of it. "Sorry man, can't control the breeze!" :dunno:
Say, you're with a friend in a liquor or C-store and because he's drunk he decides it would be a good idea to steal something & rob the place and the clerk starts shooting or fighting to protect his business. Would you still say it would be "automatic" to back your friend up? (Thereby, becoming an "accomplish to your friend's criminal actions.)
Originally Posted by ComplexKaos
It's the same thing; only a different crime.
Without sounding conceited, I was (still am), a pretty bad-a when it comes to fighting and have maimed & almost killed more than one person with my bare hands. But, I stay humble & don't start anything.
Yet, I have "had" friends & acquaintances that know this about me and thought it would be fun to start some $!^+ with people just to have me back them up. This has caused me some real problems in the past & I almost went to prison once.
Thank God, I learned to hang around with a better class of people after my so-called friends started a fight & then bailed on me; leaving me to finish it.
I strongly suggest to examine your "relationship" with this person. My thoughts are a TRUE friend would NOT get drunk & try to get me int a fight by starting one in my presence.
I've read this thing all the way through & am surprised no one has already said what I'm gonna' say. (Ahem), Any & all of my friends with whom I might drink know me damn well-enough to realize that if they put ME in that situation, I am MUCH more likely...to knock THEM out. The other guys didn't pick the fight, my "friend" did. The other guys didn't put me in an difficult bind, my "friend" did. I would much rather go toe-to-toe with my "friend" (who may be belligerent, but won't knife or shoot me) than to side with an outta' line drunk against two strangers in a strange place who have righteous indignation clearly on their side! Haven't any of y'all ever cold-cocked a friend to stop them from doing something REALLY STUPID and LIFE ALTERING like drunk hang-gliding or throwing someone else in a bonfire? Dang, what kinda' friends ARE y'all? Friends are folks who love ya' enough to STOP you from pure ignorance. :alc:
I probably didn't effectively tell the entire story sufficiently, because there's a lot being read into this... Ie: that he's a good friend (he's not) That the other guys were unfairly attacked and/or sober (they weren't)... etc...
The real core of the questions however are:
Defusing a situation like this is risky. You can easily get drawn into it yourself simply by putting yourself in the position to mediate. But defusing it prevents it from developing into something worse.
Would you take the risk, if you're armed, to defuse it? The answer seems to be *no* - since you're armed, you simply have to keep out of it, because if it DOES go badly, then it can go REALLY REALLY badly for someone (most likely you). If you're not able to defuse it... now you're in the middle of it, AND there's a gun involved (drawn or not, it's there.) That's a pretty big deal.
The fact that the friend started it actually makes it worse, since it could be argued you and your friend were looking for a fight so you could shoot someone.
The second part of the question was one of the two-on-one fight... if it got to the point of being life threatening against the friend. It's a no-win situation there since, again, if he started it, they could argue that they feared for their lives, and the second a gun enters into it, they have clear irrefutable evidence to support that claim. So to quote wargames: "The only winning strategy is not to play." Which means either don't hang with someone who puts you in that situation, or if it occurs, get out of it as quickly as you can before you're drawn into the escalation. Calling the police on your friend if needed to save his life.
There IS the moral dilemma of "what if it DID become life threatening" for your friend. It would have to be one heck of a beat down, but it does happen. It's a hard judgement call there, and does come down to the question of risking your life (potentially imprisonment) for him. It is not clear cut.
The lack of weapon use by the "other guys" puts things in perspective a bit. There might be more justification if the situation went like this:
Drunk friend picks fight... shoving, punching occurs on both sides.
One of the other guys pulls a gun or a knife...
But you're still in for a world of hurt, legally, no one wants to be there, so the key is... don't be there.
I would have been a good friend and decked my friend to diffuse the situation and throw him in the car. Then the next day explained that I potentially saved his life.
That would be battery, friend or not. You'd probably be better off letting the other guys take the heat.
Originally Posted by BigJon10125