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Breaking up a fist fight...

8K views 68 replies 47 participants last post by  GentlemanJim 
#1 ·
This actually happened to me a few weeks back. Fortunately, the situation was defused, and no one was hurt, I wasn't even carrying at the time (bar, no CCW yet)... But it got me thinking about what I should do when carrying, should the situation ever occur again.

To make a long story short, I had a friend who had gotten drunk. (I was not drinking.) He then, subsequently, picked a fight with two other gentlemen. It came very close to actually coming to blows, but I intervened and defused it. Before the defusing, though, threats were made by the other two guys that they would "beat the stuffing" out of my friend in the parking lot.

So my questions center around the following:

If I were carrying, should I have intervened? By stepping in, I drew more than a little of the heat myself. They turned at least some of their threats against me. As a carrier, I want to try my damnedest NOT to get into a fight. Should I have just let my drunk friend continue to get in deeper trouble?

If they had made good on the threats, since it was two on one, would that have been enough disparity of force to justify drawing to put a stop to a beat down? This one, I feel probably not, unless they had him down and were seriously injuring him... But that said... My final question:

Would you have drawn if they were beating on him? Or just call the police? It's a friend, not a family member, not you yourself.

It's easier to say "I'm not an LEO, stupid drunk made his bed, now he's gotta lay in it..." when you don't know the drunk personally.

Of course, I know that the best answer is: Dont go in bars with an idiot friend like this. Yep... I'm with ya there. I likely won't ever again. It's amazing how drunks don't see how much other people actually don't find their behavior to be charming.
 
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#2 ·
You answered your own question. Don't be in that position in the first place.

If you ARE in that situation for some reason, remember that ANY fight you become involved in has at least one gun present. Is that drunk friend/relative/whatever worth spending the rest of your life in prison if things take the wrong turn? De-escalate if you can, but be very careful about becoming physically involved in what is not really your fight.

Sometimes the best lesson a drunk can learn is getting his butt kicked.
 
#11 ·
Well said comments. I would add that having "buddies" who get drunk and pick fights with others is not a buddy, he is a liability that you will find out about someday. It never ceases to amaze me how some forum members seem to be proud to ask questions like this as if there is an answer that will verify their choices in their lives and their friends---you tell this story and you have a firearm on you?
 
#3 ·
Probably best to stay out of it, if armed. If your friend looked like he was antagonizing someone in any way, that could be a real bad situation in court if you had a weapon. It could look like both of you were trying to start something, which isn't a good way to prove self defense. It might be a situation for a "less than lethal" weapon, but if things got worse, you might still have to draw your firearm, and if a fight started, there is alway the chance that a gun grab could happen if you got knocked out, or even temporarily dazed.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Sounds like your buddy is a Delta Bravo. Why get involved armed or not? Maybe try to talk some sense into your friend. What I always used to do was let my friend get beat on a little before I intervened. These days the way I handle those situations is to stay out of enviroments that fights are likely to happen. Like bars. Took me until my mid twenties to learn that one. How would that work out, your buddy starts a fight gets a bad beating and you shoot the other guy. Youll be living in prison from there on out. The best method is dont get involved at all.
 
#5 ·
1. If you didn't go to the cheapest bar you could find there should have been a bouncer around that would have taken care of all 3 of them...
2. Alcohol and Firearms don't mix, whether you're drinking, at a bar, or around a bunch of drunk "friends". It's foolish.
3. If you have a gun and no non-lethal alternative... it is again... foolish.

If it was my friend who started it, let them go at it... I'm not going to get an assault charge for helping a drunk, whether he's my friend or not.
If he did not start it, OC spray.
 
#6 ·
A number of years back (in some cases, not THAT many years back), I was in this exact same situation with my best buddy. As a matter of fact, a recurring pattern with this particular friend I grew up with. Seemed every time we got together this would happen. Over the years, I had many outcomes. Sometimes I got pulled into the middle of bar fights. Sometimes I gave the worst of it and sometimes I got the worst of it. At one point, I got tired of his mouth getting ME in trouble. So, the last time it happened, I ended up getting into a fight with my buddy. I told the guys he deserved a butt whoopin, but I was going to be the one giving it to him. They didn't know how to react. After that, I told him he was on his own. His mouth, his problem. I also began to heed "The Stupid Rule." That is, "Don't hang out with stupid people, don't go to stupid places, and don't do stupid things." When I used to hang with him, all three segments ended up out the window. Now, I live 700 miles away. We talk on the phone and catch up on old times. When I go back to see my parents, I might see him for a minute but I don't dare go anywhere with him. It's just not smart.
 
#7 ·
My standard plan if a friend I am with tries to or actually picks a fight with someone or several someones because that friend is drunk, and then complains that I stood by and watched them get their arse handed to them, is, "Sux to be you, huh?"

A person legally carrying has a much higher standard of staying out of these stupid situations than the general public because of the possibility of escalation from just words and fists to death.

Believe me, if you let a friend who is drunk drag you into something and you end up having to "shoot to save your or his life," expect to be arrested and charged because your friend "started it in the first place."

The best course is to try to loudly and profusely apologize to the guys your friend insulted (or whatever caused the problem) so any witnesses will hopefully be able to say that you tried to to deescalate and leave, then try to drag that friend away and let the insulted parties call you whatever words they want, but keep your eyes open so that if they do try to "jump you" in the parking lot, you are prepared.

Remember there are cameras everywhere these days and it is much easier to explain why you had to draw a weapon when trying to leave and being attacked while trying to retreat than after "jumping in" to stop something your friend antagonized to begin with, because too many street thugs will use that exact same excuse for "jumping in" on a fight, telling the police when they arrive, "I was just protecting my friend." The police usually respond while arresting everyone for fighting in public, "Well, maybe you should have tried to walk away, huh?"

And if that did happen, when that friend sobers up, they will get an explanation why I will no longer hang out in public with them if they ever get stupid drunk and try to start a fight again.
 
#9 ·
Junkyard dog fights are rough. But, they need not involve anyone else. Particularly when a "friend" is the one who picks the fight. You've gotta ask yourself: how much of a "friend" such a person is, who would criminally provoke and assault others then expect you to jump right in. Friends like this can get you killed.

Got questions about the statutes that cover such criminal provocation in violent assaults? Read through your state's statutes for such crimes, and think really hard about what it could easily mean to you if you were to dive right in.

Sure, it can be claimed to be "easy" to say keep out of it. IMO, it's also the right thing and the smart thing, let alone being the lawful thing to do.

If they had made good on the threats, since it was two on one, would that have been enough disparity of force to justify drawing to put a stop to a beat down? This one, I feel probably not, unless they had him down and were seriously injuring him...
A "disparity of force" claim, in a situation where the someone being pounded criminally provoked the assault in the first place? Try that claim in court, to see how far it'll go before splatting on the floor. It wouldn't be the silliest thing to claim, but it would come close.
 
#12 ·
Yep, sounds like you answered your own question. And just follow the stupid rules and you'll stay clear of almost all these situations.

I've only been carrying since febuary. I used to be one of the bar crowd and most my friends still are. Its funny though, how much this really will change your life. You see things in a whole different view. I have only been in a bar maybe twice since (of course not carrying). Its just not my scene or really who I am anymore. I do have a 1yr old daughter that has just as much impact on this as well though. I'd bet you'll start to find you'll just naturally avoid those situations once you start carrying.
 
#14 ·
If your friend has a personality trait where he gets mean, antagonistic & likes to pick fights when he gets intoxicated then one of these days he is going to get drunk and he is going to start on you.
Find a new friend before you start carrying a firearm or one of these days you might need to shoot this one when he decides to start wailing at you with a baseball bat over some really silly and stupid issue.
 
#15 ·
I hope you wouldn't let your friend drunk or not get beat up by two guys. If you would, that's a punk move by not helping him regardless of his situation. It shouldn't even be a question, of course you intervene if its your friend against multiple guys.

Perhaps your hands aren't as good as your trigger finger, because anyone can sling bullets but not everyone can sling knuckles. Not trying to start anything but the fact that you are questioning helping a friend rubs me the wrong way, it should be automatic.

If anything physically remove him from the situation as fast as you can like you did and from there don't go out with him anymore when he wants to drink.
 
#19 ·
I hope you wouldn't let your friend drunk or not get beat up by two guys. If you would, that's a punk move by not helping him regardless of his situation.
The situation was: a drunkard criminally provoked the assault. Deciding to jump in to defend such a crime makes one's legal situation really simple. Had the situation been that he was attacked by others, well that's something else entirely.

In short: friends don't provoke friends to commit felony crimes.

For some, "regardless of the situation" means blindly jumping in irrespective of the costs or criminality involved. For others, circumspection has value. We all make our choices in this life. We all get known for them, generally speaking. And we all must live with them.

Assuming this assault occurred in the OP's state, Arizona:

Arizona Criminal Code 13-404. Justification; self-defense

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:

  1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or

  2. 2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or

  3. 3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

    (a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

    (b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.


13-406. Justification; defense of a third person

A person is justified in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force against another to protect a third person if, under the circumstances as a reasonable person would believe them to be, such person would be justified under section 13-404 or 13-405 in threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force to protect himself against the unlawful physical force or deadly physical force a reasonable person would believe is threatening the third person he seeks to protect.


13-301. Definition of accomplice

In this title, unless the context otherwise requires, "accomplice" means a person, other than a peace officer acting in his official capacity within the scope of his authority and in the line of duty, who with the intent to promote or facilitate the commission of an offense:

  1. Solicits or commands another person to commit the offense; or
  2. Aids, counsels, agrees to aid or attempts to aid another person in planning or committing an offense.
  3. Provides means or opportunity to another person to commit the offense.
 
#16 ·
No friend of mine would get drunk, pick a fight and then rely on me to win it for him. That's just the way it is for me. If you're stupid enough to get drunk and pick a fight, that's your own problem. I'm not fixing it for you. Actions have consequences.

Just follow the rule of stupid and you'll be fine.
 
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#17 ·
Don't drink to excess, don't go to bars...we already know those rules, it just takes time for many of us to let them sink in...:banghead:
 
#18 ·
I don't drink and this is a reason why I don't go out with anyone who does drink. You can have a good time without getting wasted, its possible but for others its hard.

If I ever get put in that situation, I'm getting my friend out of there and then we are having a long talk. If he continues to go out drinking then he will be on his own with no back up.

I'll be out in Vegas next weekend and a dozen partners are going I won't be with them outside of a few hours , hopefully nothing happens but I will intervene to save their jobs if necessary.
 
#20 ·
A couple days ago there were 2 guys fighting in the street some guy was in his house and thought he would go break it up he intervened and got shot twice then the 2 guys ran off.
If your buddy has a drinking problem I would encourage him to stop drinking and get help,in some places you intervening in a fight that escalates into you shooting somebody may lead a Prosecutor into charging you after he decides that you escalated a fist fight looking to shoot somebody,In most States it's illegal to carry into a bar,and if you run to your car and retrieve a gun instead of calling 911,"Guess what"
 
#21 ·
I was taught in class that a court would look at the situation and if there is any possible escape path, that is what you must choose rather than engaging. It has to be a life threatening situation or you will see jail time at the expense of bailing out a drunk friend-again. Even exposing a weapon in a situation is viewed as "using" the weapon, even if no shots are fired. Situations can get heated quickly, but it takes a very level head to manage them correctly.
 
#27 ·
In SC, you would have no justification to use deadly force to protect him, or yourself if you got yourself involved. And since you'd be foolish to bring a gun into a situation in which you can't use it, your choice is to either disarm before stepping in, or don't step in.

I know they say that you don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, but legally speaking, you don't want to be the idiot that brought a gun to a fist fight.
 
#28 ·
I would Pepper spray all three of them and watch the fun..... Sounds like you friend needed some parking lot training on manners

Something to remember... if you get involved you stands to lose your CCW permit; is it worth it for his stupidness
 
#29 ·
As others have said, follow the "stupid rules". If your friend wants to act that way, he deserves what he gets.

Carry OC spray for those times when you feel like you might need to break up a fight.
 
#30 ·
I quit hanging out with folks who do stupid things when they drink a long, long time ago.

When I was still doing what the OP was doing, I would have simply removed the friend from the bar myself and we would have left. Probably would have asked the two other fellows to get the door for me while we headed out. Nothing good is going to come out of getting in a fight in a public place when it can be avoided. Back then I would have rather gotten into it with the buddy than the strangers. Me and the buddy can have a beer when it is done and talk about how stupid it was to be picking fights.

As far as whether or not having a gun would make any differnece, it shouldn't. If you put yourself in a position to get a butt whoopin and your loosing, suck it up, you will heal and be a bit smarter when things are done.
 
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#31 ·
The last time I was in this situation was in Hickory NC. Big bar fight and I was at the bar and stuck in middle of it. Me and another large guy stood back to back and pushed people away from us. When the dust settled, I gathered my 2 drunk buddies and we cut a trail as the police arrived. I was driving one of their cars (I was sober) and about 4 miles down the road a car full of guys had followed us and ran us off the road. The curb blew a tire and I darted onto the interstate and lost them (they could not make turn onto ramp). I took the next exit and did a NASCAR pit stop tire change at midnight and got the heck out of there. Tore his rim and car up, but we avoided another encounter. I don't hang with those guys anymore. Point is even after you leave, watch out down the road.
 
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