I agree with some others this thread as come way to far off the OP. I know I did my part to get it that way. (Sorry) :embarassed:
This is one of the best forums I visit when it comes to discussing different scenarios. Personally, I think everyone here brings a lot to the table. I'm proud of those that will participate in these threads.
The one thing I love about this thread & the poll is absolutely nobody chose #3. This makes me have hope for the future. Irregardless of our varied belief on when the right time to call 911 happens to be.
NOBODY, will allow the BG to leave with a hostage! :congrats:
- You are carrying.
- You have cleared the house to the point of your own bedroom.
- Your bedroom is closed and locked.
- You FORCE the door.
- Gunman has a loaded and cocked* firearm pointed at your child's head, with his finger on the trigger* (asterisked* and italicized assumed).
Laser or not, this is your target in red:
To guarantee a non-twitch inducing shot as long as BG's gun is on your kids head with his finger on the trigger. All due respect to those who train regularly for just such situations... with or without a laser.
If you want to take the shot, go ahead. I ain't.
Now, that said, BG is not leaving the room with anyone... If he wishes to leave alive, he better do so.
I have only two blood relations on this planet as I am adopted...one is 4 and the other is 2. If ANYONE ever points a weapon at them or even implies a threat...as long as I have life in me that person will pay. If I die, so be it. But I will at least TRY to save them.
One thing also to try is for him to get him to point gun at you and that's when you make your move!
I was reading this and got about halfway thru when I realized what would happen at my house, so if anyone from about post #70 or later has already suggested this, I apologize for being redundant.
My wife is a strong, capable 31 year old "MAMA BEAR". She and I are a single, united team of home defenders and train together accordingly. Long before a hostage situation were a possibility, the intruder would have already had his welcoming and orientation in hell.
Oakchas thanks for posting the moving head your computer and internet as much better than I have here.
It's a very small target isn't it? but that is the shot you have to take in order to make sure he does not have a sympathetic reflex and pull the trigger. Even then the trigger may still get pulled from a number of other factors.
I won't even attempt to address all the posts that concern me so I will just make a couple of general statements. In regards to the OP yep the posts have morphed with things being added to the scenario so let's bypass everything and get right to the point of you are standing in the door, a gun is to your child's head and you have to take the shot.
It is comforting to know that there are so many cool headed, cold blooded, expert marksman on the board that they could take this shot cold with there child's life in the balance. As many have stated on the forum before they carry to protect themselves and their family, practice/train at short distances because that is all they need, don't train at all because an article where a 70 year old grandmother who never held a gun shot and killed her attacker said that they will act instinctively and survive the encounter.
They carry a pocket rocket because the stats say the max distance will be mere feet instead of yards and they don't need a larger caliber. They are of the opinion that "6 inch groups" at 7 yards are good enough and they would rather be the one to take the shot instead of a police officer. Among many, many other quips and quotes. I am sure that there are some on here that could do it but for the vast majority "it ain't happening" no matter what your internet alter ego may say.
One member even posted how shooting is like pointing at a doorknob and "It just happens" or something to that effect? Really is that how it works? I would be willing to wager that if I laid down $500 and set this person up at 7 yards with a doorknob size target he would not hit it. I'm sorry if this is insulting but come on. If shooting were as simple as that there would be no need for ranges or extra ammo as everyone would have it down pat point at the target and pull the trigger scoring instant hits.
Taking a human life is not all it is cracked up to be and especially at handgun distances. I will simply come out and say it. If you think you will come into this scenario cold and find your child taken hostage and you will make a head shot on the suspect with the precision needed with little or no training, with less than adequate caliber or equipment your are dead wrong. Yep you may hit the guy in the face but in the ensuing painful reaction he will pull the trigger either on purpose or accidently but the results would be the same.
A less than two inch group consistently at 7 yards with your bullets striking POA/POI everytime and that is being somewhat generous. That is what you will need to end the threat with the minimal amount of risk to your child. So far just over 60% of you are saying you could do just that.
I am not knocking Tricolordad's statement I am merely using it as an example.
If he points a gun at a child he has no right to be alive.
Absolutely correct he is scum of the earth deserves to die and rot in hell...but...are you the best person or is this the time and place to send him there? Right at that moment the only thing that matters is the life of your family. If you could take actions, other than shooting, that resulted in everyone's release and the BG walks out alive to would you? Those actions may include backing off, calling LE, talking to the guy, defusing the situation and so on.
If ANYONE ever points a weapon at them or even implies a threat...as long as I have life in me that person will pay. If I die, so be it. But I will at least TRY to save them. Again absolutely correct we would do anything to protect our child or loved ones from harm..but.. again do not confuse protecting them with revenge.
Yes overall the act that has been committed is a horrible crime and he deserves to be punished for what they have done. Should you take action that results in the death of your child, even if you kill the bad guy, he is dead and gone you are the one who has to go on living with it, not him.
Gents it is easy to sit on your computer and say what we would do in any given situation. It is a proven fact that many overestimate their abilities then when the time comes to act excuses fly for their lack of action or given skill in the time of need. I am not saying some on here could do exactly what they say they could do but many others would either not take action at all or take actions that were less than adequate and would result in the death of the child.
I am not claiming to be the all knowing gun guru or a Special Forces scuba trained jumpmaster, I am just someone who has been there and done that in several places in the real world and have seen how people react under the stress of real world situations. The next time you go to the range try this experiment. Put a 1-2 inch dot on the target at 7 yards and see if you can hit it consistently. If possible have a shooting buddy try to induce stress or distractions and see if you can still hit it. Now multiply that little bit of stress by 10,000 and that is about the beginning level of what you would face in the OP.
I realize that in the OP many of the things presented in this post and others were not listed as an option and that may influence the voting somewhat, however everyone needs to honestly evaluate their ability and there equipment before stating that they could accomplish the mission at hand.
The burning question remains with your skill level and equipment, Still think you could take and make the shot?
I found this pic of a target I shot in Iraq. Glock 19, 7 yards, four or five rounds I can't remember now, with one each fired with the pistol held in a standard position, held 90 degrees right, 90 degrees left and finally upside down simply to demonstrate to the folks I was teaching the importance of sight picture. I am not posting it to brag I am posting is to make the point I shoot a lot and train a lot in order for me to do stuff like this. You cannot practice or simply pick up a gun and shoot it like this you have to put some prior thought and training into it.
Point of aim would be the tip of the nose. I think the one round out of the cluster was the one shot upside down. It would still have gotten the job done.
tacman!! Hallelujah and pass the butter that was an amazing post!
Be careful tacman, you could lose your money. :smile:Quote:
I would be willing to wager that if I laid down $500 and set this person up at 7 yards with a doorknob size target he would not hit it.
I know a lot of people that can hit a target that size cold, from concealment & do it in under 2sec. It's all about training.
You mentioned pocket pistols--
My wife can hit the 10ring (IDPA targets) cold probably 70-80% of the time using her BG380; and she does it from 10yrds without using the laser.
(At in home distances that are half that distance, she could go all Mel Gibson on the guy & give a BG another set of eye sockets and a new smile.)
BTW; She can also do the exact same thing with her 24/7 Pro C 45.
Another thing it depends on is how you act/react under intense pressure. Some people don't even flinch when their life is in danger & bullets are whizzing by their head.
Personally, I have been in more than a few life threatening situations and I have had bullets actually singe the hair on my head. I've also had my neck burned by a grazing shot. (The bullets were that close!)
I don't flinch; nor do I lose control of my bladder & bowels; and I know that with certainty. (However, I will say after the situations were over and the adrenalin dump hit, I began to shake uncontrollably and I became so weak I could not stand for several minutes.)
The point is; not all people act/react the same. The most important thing you need to know BEFORE anything ever happens is your ability & the LIMITS thereof. (Training & experience are your guides to understanding your abilities & limitations.)
Even if a person has little to NO training or experience, it doesn't mean they would be incapable of handling this particular situation. They will just have a higher level of uncertainty to overcome.
(History is FULL of people that have overcome all sorts of things, that before they experienced them, they may have thought impossible to accomplish.)
Hmmmm knock me or don't, just be clear on which you are doing.....I'm simply asserting my point of view that an intruder who chooses to hole your family up in a room and point a gun at your child's head has already gauged the situation and determined that without holding a gun to your child's head, they have absolutely NO CHANCE at leaving. I myself, do not see it as a situation where I can sit around and think about the possibilities and take that risk that he already decided to stand me down and shoot me my child and my family and then commit suicide by cop or however he thinks it would end...He has already chosen to make the final standoff and there will most likely be no other way.
But go ahead and talk him down because if it works on TV then it must work in real life.
BTW I may have pictures of people I shot in Iraq, but I'm not basing this scenario on that experience. Apples and oranges...
Tricolordad not bashing or disagreeing with you at all your post just happen to be the closest one that I could reference and use.
Let me ask you this though. If you could end it without firing a shot and everyone goes home would you?
You stated, they have absolutely NO CHANCE at leaving. leaving with the child, absolutely not but leaving period? If he agreed to let everyone go and simply walk out the door would you let him? Or would you consider it an insult and a violation to what he did to your family and take his life anyway?
You are correct there coms a time when you may be forced to act and at that point you have to do what you have to do, but if you can get the same result, family ok and bad guy out the door why not give it a shot.
Tcox almost forgot you said the magic words "Training, Practice" and so on. Yes there are people on this forum who train and practice in a realistic manner who know they could do this and I have no doubt they could but alas there are many others who don't train or practice in anything close to a realistic manner who think they can do this but in all reality can't. There is a world of difference.
And yes I would watch with whom I laid my money down against.
I think one thing that is not often considered in these scenarios is the mannerisms and general impression of the bad guy (namely because it's impossible to know until you are faced with the situation).
I think a lot of us (myself included) when reading these scenarios, picture someone in our mind like we'd picture mug shots or something. Cold, indifferent, whatever.
But if you opened that door and found a shaking 17 year old who was obviously scared out of his mind and the first thing he said was, "I don't want to hurt anyone. Just let me go! I'll let her go if you just let me go!" Would that change things?
It might not for some. As you said, there are those who would think it was just such an insult to the family that they had to die anyway.
While I can understand the sentiment, I don't necessarily think it's all that smart when it comes to resolving the situation.
As stated, if you can end the situation without any shots fired, would you do it?
I most certainly would!
The only things I would not do would be put down my gun or let him leave with my child but I'm willing to let him put down my little girl and walk out the door without putting holes in him. To me, that is a very good resolution to the situation.
Then I'd hound the police to catch him.
But I wouldn't just unleash him on my neighbors, or give him another shot at my home or family with the benefit of a trial run behind him.