Scenario: You come home from work & ........ - Page 13

Scenario: You come home from work & ........

This is a discussion on Scenario: You come home from work & ........ within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Guess I'm old school, talk and tender footin around is to PC for me. I'd start walking towards him, telling him he has 2 choices ...

View Poll Results: What is your response

Voters
126. You may not vote on this poll
  • Tell the guy to drop it or die

    17 13.49%
  • Shoot him in the head & call the police

    80 63.49%
  • Let him escape with your child & call the police

    0 0%
  • Try to reason with him & tell him that his only way out is to let your child go.

    38 30.16%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 391011121314 LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 196
Like Tree160Likes

Thread: Scenario: You come home from work & ........

  1. #181
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,465
    Guess I'm old school, talk and tender footin around is to PC for me. I'd start walking towards him, telling him he has 2 choices turn the kid loose or die. Because I'm going to kill him unless he gets the kid turned loose first. And I would do IT! And I think it will show. And I will be close enough to make the shot when I take it, because the barrel may be touching his eye when the gun goes bang.

    Maybe I have watched to many Dirty Harry movies. But stale mates don't go well most times. So you may as well screw with his OODA loop and throw it for a tail spin before he has time to think. His thoughts are you will pee in your pants and beg for mercy, when you don't, you have about 2 seconds to end it.


    I know some if not most here will say I'm wrong but sometimes you have to let the apples fall as they will.

    Can I live with the loss of my child? I think I can because I tried but can you live with the loss if you do nothing and he still kill your child. Because what I see is if you talk and talk and talk at some point he is going to tell you to put down your gun or he will kill the child. Question do you do it or let him shoot you child? If you do you all may or will die. You have already shown you don't want to act but talk and comply, he has control of the situation. You've lost before you got started.

    Now the big question here is do YOU have the mindset to pull this action off? I would guess most here do not. Why? Because "It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby".
    tricolordad likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes


  2. #182
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    3,249
    Just throw flowers, that way you don't offend anyone.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

  3. #183
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New Richmond, Wisconsin
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Guess I'm old school, talk and tender footin around is to PC for me. I'd start walking towards him, telling him he has 2 choices turn the kid loose or die. Because I'm going to kill him unless he gets the kid turned loose first. And I would do IT! And I think it will show. And I will be close enough to make the shot when I take it, because the barrel may be touching his eye when the gun goes bang.

    Maybe I have watched to many Dirty Harry movies. But stale mates don't go well most times. So you may as well screw with his OODA loop and throw it for a tail spin before he has time to think. His thoughts are you will pee in your pants and beg for mercy, when you don't, you have about 2 seconds to end it.


    I know some if not most here will say I'm wrong but sometimes you have to let the apples fall as they will.

    Can I live with the loss of my child? I think I can because I tried but can you live with the loss if you do nothing and he still kill your child. Because what I see is if you talk and talk and talk at some point he is going to tell you to put down your gun or he will kill the child. Question do you do it or let him shoot you child? If you do you all may or will die. You have already shown you don't want to act but talk and comply, he has control of the situation. You've lost before you got started.

    Now the big question here is do YOU have the mindset to pull this action off? I would guess most here do not. Why? Because "It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby".
    I happen to agree with the last sentence completely and i applaud your genuine and original response. Now watch everybody tear into a guy telling the truth about what he would do and why. Lol

  4. #184
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    So what you're saying is that we're all untrained (by your standards), and that we should all do what you say because only you have enough knowledge to end this scenario well? Just because you're "on the x in afghanistan" doesn't mean that you are the only one who is or has been there or is proficient with their weapon. In the average home invasion situation, your training will amount to jack because it is a different place, different time and will have different rules. I'm willing to bet that on this site, there are more than a few who have served, be it OEF, OIF, Bosnia, Desert Storm/Shield, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea etc...I have also seen a few civvies at the local range and other shooting events who have attended Front Site or a similar training program and have a better proficiency with their little pocket rocket than I had with my M9 at the height of my service. I have also witnessed my wife's 17 year old sister pick up a pistol for the first time in her life and keep a little over a 1" group after only a few hundred rounds from 7 yards.

    Since you've constantly questioned everybody else, knocked every response and told us we're all unable to do it: enlighten us. Tell us the answer o accomplished one.


    As I have stated over and over again I am not claiming to be the shooter's guru or a scuba certified, SF jumpmaster I have merely stated that the average CCW holder on the forum, or in the real world for that matter, despite what there internet voice tells them to type could not make the shot. In regards to my training before becoming a contractor I was a cop for 20 plus years, a professional LE trainer for most of that, and an entry team member and scout/sniper with our tactical team so I am basing my comments on more that being a contractor in a war zone. Your training or lack thereof is on you and you alone. I set no standard for anyone but don't tell me you can run a 10 second 100 yard dash when you have bad knees, are 80 pounds overweight and get out of breath climbing up three steps and expect me to believe you.

    Folks have posted that they would kill the bad guy no matter what, they would advance on the shooter firing multiple shots to a "6 inch moving target", would not hesitate, and so on and on. Some, not all, by any means, are the same folks who asked if it is safe to carry a round in the chamber a week ago, have not shot their carry gun in the last three months and then only at three yards because the stats tell them that is how far it will be, have never trained to shoot while moving but now could accomplish breaching a door, shooting on the move or stationary whichever, and hitting a rather small target all without batting an eye and if their child dies in the process so be it. For many stating they could do all this without ever even attempting to try it in a soft, controlled enviroment but now all of a sudden they can do it for real?

    As one member stated "shooting is like pointing at a doorknob" simply point at the target and that is where the bullet goes. Yes you can point at the doorknob and you may hit the door but what good does that do in a case like this?

    I have merely stated that this is not something that you can go into cold and expect to get the job done. IF you decide to take the one shot that will give you the best chance of saving your child's life then you must hit a target that is a little over one inch in size every single time. Now if you want to kick in the door and start firing at the guys head great. Fire 15 reload and fire 15 more a monkey can pull the trigger but what exactly are you going to accomplish? You have not accomplished anything but killing the bad guy and getting your child killed.

    It is great that your sister can shoot a one inch group after "hundreds of rounds" at seven yards but can she walk in pick up a gun, cold, right now or tommorow and do it everytime? Now add the stress of the break in, the stress of clearing the house, and finally the stress of seeing your own child being held at gunpoint? Now can she do it?

    Their are folks here that could make this shot, there are people here who have served in every conflict in modern history, there are people here who train constantly at some of the best training facilities in the country to keep their skillset up, and sorry but Front Sight is not one of them, and I am not saying I am any better than anyone else but call a spade a spade.
    You stated that their are people who are better with their pocket rocket than you are/were with a full size M9. If that is the case you need to get out more you need to get on the range more.
    As of today 63% said shoot him in the head and call the cops, when all is said and done how many could actually do it? I am not known for sugar coating my responses or my views and I will not do it in this case.

    Everyone would react differently. I realize that with the limited choices given in the OP that many just clicked the button to shoot without thinking about it, I did notice there is now another option. You posted earlier that you would not have time to evaluate all the things mentioned and would take the shot. Fine that is your choice it is not mine, I would evaluate the situation if possible, if you feel you can do it great, happy for you but you will get one chance, no do over's, no wait a minutes, one chance and that is the only point I am trying to make.
    Could you honestly say that you could walk in, see the situation and take the shot, not A shot but THE shot to end this without your child being killed? Simple fact is like it or not most could not. Have you ever breached a door? Have you ever considered where to hit/kick an interior hollow core door so your foot does not go all the way through leaving you stuck? Do you know where your weapons POA/POI is at different distances? All these things are simply points of consideration. If you don't think you need to think of them by all means don't but all of the above points come from training and experience from people who have done it before.
    As I stated in my first post in this matter right at that moment in time when you find the door kicked is not the time to learn how to clear your house. Right at that moment when you breach the door and find a BG with a gun to your childs head is not the time to learn to make the kind of shot that is needed, but again you do what you need to or think you can do.

    Honestly evaluate your skill level and equipment. Can you shoot a one inch group at 7 yards everytime striking POA/POI? That is what it would take to give you the best odds of ending this with your child alive and things may still go wrong and he may still pull the trigger. This is your child's life in the balance, do you not owe it to them to have the best skills you can? Next time you go to the range set up a target at 7 yards. Put a 1-2 inch dot on the head. Without firing another shot prior walk up, if allowed, no stress factors, no distractions so tell me where is that round going to strike? I and others brought up points to think about that others may or would not think about for consideration, if you don't want to do it don't, it's not my kids life in the balance.

    I am not knocking anyone's post I do however know which members train or have trained on a regular basis or have the particular background/skillset to do something like this. I have no doubt that BillMo and others could take the actions needed to end this scenario. I would attempt to talk BillMo would not, ok no big deal does not mean my response is better or his is worse the simple fact remains he has the skillset and mindset to make the shot.

    Finally in answer to your question as to what I would do. Moving past calling 911, clearing the house and so on. If confronted with the OP's scenario I would evaluate the situation first. Time is on my side UNLESS the bad guy pushes the situation. I would look to see what weapon he is carrying, what condition is it in, where other family members are located, are they behind the suspect and so on.
    If dialogue right at that moment helps by all means keep it going. Again the point to all this is you family is safe, period. It makes no difference if the bad guy walks out and is caught by LE or not, this crisis involving your family is done and over with.

    If the suspect decides to push the situation I am fully confident in my skillset and I know my equipment in such a manner that I could take the one shot and hit the target needed to give my child the best possible chance of survival but I am not going to start shooting multiple rounds hoping to hit the suspect in the head, leg, arm or whereever and hope for the best.
    Last edited by tacman605; August 22nd, 2012 at 04:47 AM.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  5. #185
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    7,369
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Really? you knocked on the door in the scenario presented... no matter what threat comes through the door... his insurance against that threat is to increase his tension on the trigger finger... You're lucky it didn't go off and kill her when you kicked in the door. Now what?
    Have you ever seen someone with a gun pointed at them. They do not leave there hands to there sides, they bring them up. Its kind of a defense mechanism. If the BG wants the 10k in the bag he can have it and walk away. Hollywood ending, everybody leaves happy

    He has your youngest child at gun point specifically pointing at there head.
    Suntzu wrote:
    I didn't make up the scenario. My answer was in response to the scenario.
    He has the gun pointed at the child when the door is opened. It does beg for a little continuation. The human reaction to a violent threat is to bring hands up to protect. I think he would most likely shoot me upon entry. That would be fine, I would bring a degree of violence upon him that he has never seen. My equipment is up to the task, my mindset is up to the task, and my training is up to the task. Believe it or not some of us have actually done these sort of things with sims.
    tacman605 and sigmanluke like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  6. #186
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,891
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Have you ever seen someone with a gun pointed at them. They do not leave there hands to there sides, they bring them up. Its kind of a defense mechanism. If the BG wants the 10k in the bag he can have it and walk away. Hollywood ending, everybody leaves happy





    He has the gun pointed at the child when the door is opened. It does beg for a little continuation. The human reaction to a violent threat is to bring hands up to protect. I think he would most likely shoot me upon entry. That would be fine, I would bring a degree of violence upon him that he has never seen. My equipment is up to the task, my mindset is up to the task, and my training is up to the task. Believe it or not some of us have actually done these sort of things with sims.
    You don't work and play well with others LOL. That is why I do not put in scenarios any more. Folks try to change them and say "this is what would probably happen". So why bother posting a specific scenario if no one wants to answer it as written.

    I guess everyone just wants to play Kirk and re program the Kobiashi Mareau scenario since they do not want to face a tougher scenario.

    Of course the BG would most likely turn his attention to the door but that is not what was written. During some the training I went through for some units we were faced with scenarios that on the surface looked un realistic. But you can't change the scenario to make it easier for you. The scenario's were made to make it harder on the decision making process.

    In this scenario saying the gun is not pointed at the child anymore makes the scenario so much easier to deal with. So be it. Now there is not a lot of decisions making process left. Of course you most likely shoot the BG. It now is a capabilities question. Life does not always work out like you want. I never had the luxury to ask the cadre for a realistic continuation of a scenario. You did the scenario as presented. You were judged on your decision making process for those set of circumstances.

  7. #187
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    You now see your child in wide eyed horror... And the gun to his/her head... And the finger on the trigger...and the tension in that finger... And you will see any changes in that tension... As you slowly bring your laser sight to just below the perp's closest eye... ... You advance, keeping your sight on his cheek bone... And you see the slightest change in the tension on his trigger... It's an increase... In fact, if it's a firearm with a visible hammer (D A), you see the hammer move a bit, away from the firing pin... The muzzle is still pointed at your child's head... Your wife is saying something, but it sounds like a charlie brown adult...wah wah wah wah wah....

    What's your move now, cowboys?


    You are now forced into the positon you have to take the shot. As I said before this is not the time to be learning on the job, you should already have that skillset.

    I will say again just to clarify and make sure everyone understands. At this point you have to do something, the burning question is do you have the skillset, mindset and equipment to do the job right?
    tcox4freedom and limatunes like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #188
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    7,369
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You don't work and play well with others LOL. That is why I do not put in scenarios any more. Folks try to change them and say "this is what would probably happen". So why bother posting a specific scenario if no one wants to answer it as written.

    I guess everyone just wants to play Kirk and re program the Kobiashi Mareau scenario since they do not want to face a tougher scenario.

    Of course the BG would most likely turn his attention to the door but that is not what was written. During some the training I went through for some units we were faced with scenarios that on the surface looked un realistic. But you can't change the scenario to make it easier for you. The scenario's were made to make it harder on the decision making process.

    In this scenario saying the gun is not pointed at the child anymore makes the scenario so much easier to deal with. So be it. Now there is not a lot of decisions making process left. Of course you most likely shoot the BG. It now is a capabilities question. Life does not always work out like you want. I never had the luxury to ask the cadre for a realistic continuation of a scenario. You did the scenario as presented. You were judged on your decision making process for those set of circumstances.
    Nothing has changed. The scenario as posted stops with you breaking the door and the BG with a gun to your kids head. Then the always leading question, what would you do? It would seem, that the what Ifs could start from there. My prior posts are not base in hollywood. There will be no hawaii five O crap from me.

    If I break down a door, with a BG holding my youngest at gun point and if the scenario is based on reality, chances are the BG will shoot at me. That is just the way it is. And to answer your question in bold. Of course I do, its just some dont like to play out of hollywood....LOL.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  9. #189
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,891
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Nothing has changed. The scenario as posted stops with you breaking the door and the BG with a gun to your kids head. Then the always leading question, what would you do? It would seem, that the what Ifs could start from there. My prior posts are not base in hollywood. There will be no hawaii five O crap from me.

    If I break down a door, with a BG holding my youngest at gun point and if the scenario is based on reality, chances are the BG will shoot at me. That is just the way it is. And to answer your question in bold. Of course I do, its just some dont like to play out of hollywood....LOL.
    Just wish I had that luxury during my training to say "hey, the BG is not cooperating." Prepare for the worst and unlikely ya know. My 2 cents.
    ericb327 and limatunes like this.

  10. #190
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,421
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Guess I'm old school, talk and ***** footin around is to PC for me. I'd start walking towards him, telling him he has 2 choices turn the kid loose or die. . .
    Bill,

    You have consistently come across on DC as a man of action one who trains frequently, for many scenarios... because after all, "it's not a hobby"...

    Above, you aren't pussyfooting around, talk is "too PC"... But as you're walking toward him, you are TELLING him he has 2 choices... "Turn the kid loose or die." So, you ARE TALKING.

    So let's continue from there.... You break in the room... kicking in the door... you see the guy, his finger, all that... you have your weapon pointed at what you believe to be the correct spot on his cheek, or nose bridge, or upper lip, or eyeball, whichever you believe is the kill shot...

    And you are still hyper-aware... and you see, after you made your statement/ultimatum that the pressure eases up on his trigger finger just a bit.... until you start advancing again.... then the pressure resumes. This, to me is some sort of clue that the guy doesn't want to die... and might be talked down... but maybe not.... is it worth the risk to try and give him an out... to stop and see if he can palaver a bit?

    Here's my point in a nutshell...
    If you continue to advance... your child may die (probably)... If you continue to advance, the BG is going to die (NO MATTER WHAT, of this I am certain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Because I'm going to kill him unless he gets the kid turned loose first.
    But in the above statement: If he turns the kid loose, he might not die... So... If you stop walking.. and start talking... and the dynamic changes just a little bit... and the pressure backs off, and the hold on your kids neck loosens a bit... then the scenario becomes...

    If you talk, you child may not die (maybe)... If you talk the BG is not going to die (maybe). (as an aside here, I might shoot him even if he gave up the child, and definitely would if he didn't lose the gun.)

    So, we know from your stance... that no matter what, the chances are the BG is gonna have a hole in him... at least one... we also know that the chances of your child having a hole in him, can change from a high probability to a maybe not... And in the scenario.... you can see the crux of the change... You give the guy an out... he backs off... you don't, he figures he's gonna take someone with him... whether from an involuntary muscle reaction, a bump while falling with the kid after the headshot... whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    And I would do IT! And I think it will show. And I will be close enough to make the shot when I take it, because the barrel may be touching his eye when the gun goes bang.
    I have no doubt of that, none at all... you will shoot the guy... but would you choose to risk your child's life if there was a way out? You are undoubtedly highly skilled and completely trained, and can kill the guy... and he knows it... So he, and we all here, know you can stop his threat... but have you trained enough to de-escalate a situation? You have the training to beat the enemy by "peace through superior firepower." Have you the discipline to avoid collateral damage if at all possible? you say you do.. if he turns the kid loose... and you may actually see him start to do so.... but when you flex your muscle, he flexes his.... he has nothing to lose... he's going to die either way, you have made that clear, except when you said "turn the kid loose OR die."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Maybe I have watched to many Dirty Harry movies. But stale mates don't go well most times. So you may as well screw with his OODA loop and throw it for a tail spin before he has time to think.
    Giving him an out, from your position of strength is screwing with his OODA loop (gawd I hate that term). His loop was messed with when you came barging in... his loop was messed up when you pointed your gun at him... his A in the loop is now to increase pressure and take your kid with him... 'cause he knows he's gonna die... Change the loop again.. he might not die if HE complies!? Hmmm, he thinks... I might get out of this alive.... But no no chance for that... this guy is gonna kill me, I might as well kill his kid... 'cause he keeps comin' and I'm gonna die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    His thoughts are you will pee in your pants and beg for mercy, when you don't, you have about 2 seconds to end it.
    He already sees you ain't wet yourself and you're comin' with the gun... except when you said OR


    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I know some if not most here will say I'm wrong but sometimes you have to let the apples fall as they will.
    You are NOT wrong... the apples WILL fall as they do...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Can I live with the loss of my child? I think I can because I tried but can you live with the loss if you do nothing and he still kill your child.
    You are not doing nothing, you are going through your own OODA loop and have seen that it might make a difference if you give him an out... it won't take long to clear this... one way or another... and I agree, in the end you gotta do what you gotta do... but talking, in this case, may tip the scale so you don't have to find out if you can live with the death of your child... that may have been avoided if.... or may not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Because what I see is if you talk and talk and talk at some point he is going to tell you to put down your gun or he will kill the child.
    This is where we disagree... I believe you are coming from the position of superior firepower... and I know and he knows you will not back down... you are giving him an out... he gives no ultimatums... you did... let loose the kid or die...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Question do you do it or let him shoot you child?
    the answer for me is the same as you ... NEITHER I ain't giving up my power... and if he don't back down he's gonna die...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    If you do you all may or will die. You have already shown you don't want to act but talk and comply
    I'm not stopping action... and if he doesn't... he's dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    he has control of the situation. You've lost before you got started.
    He had control (or thought he did) until you said "choose" ... "let go or die" Now you and your actions control the situation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Now the big question here is do YOU have the mindset to pull this action off? I would guess most here do not. Why? Because "It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby".
    Oh, I believe I do... and you're right "it ain't a hobby." You have trained for all the mechanical aspects of the gun fight... there is room for improvement, you can work on the mental and psyche parts, too... not saying you don't have the mindset to do the job that needs to be done.... but sometimes the mind need not be set but flexible to options within a small range of possibilities... right/left/up/down/sideways... cover as much of the 360°2 as possible, with ALL your faculties to prevail...

    Gavin DeBecker says, in Just 2 Seconds that you have to be in the NOW... 100%. For me, adrenaline slows things down.... and makes them more clear... for some it does not... and then muscle memory training takes over... and you fall back to training repetitions... that works... But, if you are PRESENT... there can be a myriad of different outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I happen to agree with the last sentence completely and i applaud your genuine and original response. Now watch everybody tear into a guy telling the truth about what he would do and why. Lol
    Not tearing into the guy... just giving him options...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  11. #191
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New Richmond, Wisconsin
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I set no standard for anyone but don't tell me you can run a 10 second 100 yard dash when you have bad knees, are 80 pounds overweight and get out of breath climbing up three steps and expect me to believe you.
    You "set no standard for anyone" but continually tell us we are wrong. I never claimed to be Michael Strahan, but I am in perfectly good physical condition. I am neither 80 pounds overweight or of old age. I am 28, 6'3" and 235 lbs, I exercise daily, own a treadmill for those rainy and snowy days and sometimes I can be seen chucking lumber just because I'm bored. I will outrun and outwork you ANY DAY you choose. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Folks have posted that they would kill the bad guy no matter what, they would advance on the shooter firing multiple shots to a "6 inch moving target", would not hesitate, and so on and on. Some, not all, by any means, are the same folks who asked if it is safe to carry a round in the chamber a week ago, have not shot their carry gun in the last three months and then only at three yards because the stats tell them that is how far it will be, have never trained to shoot while moving but now could accomplish breaching a door, shooting on the move or stationary whichever, and hitting a rather small target all without batting an eye and if their child dies in the process so be it. For many stating they could do all this without ever even attempting to try it in a soft, controlled enviroment but now all of a sudden they can do it for real?

    As one member stated "shooting is like pointing at a doorknob" simply point at the target and that is where the bullet goes. Yes you can point at the doorknob and you may hit the door but what good does that do in a case like this?
    I bet a good percentage of us could. Yesterday using .40 and .22 pistols with 8 and 10 round magazines plus one each, I did that advancing the 40 yards from the end of my driveway to the treeline at a jog and hit an old breakroom microwave every time. 20 holes in an unpunctured working device. I'd say that's slightly better than a 6 inch target from across a bedroom. And I'm out of practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I have merely stated that this is not something that you can go into cold and expect to get the job done. IF you decide to take the one shot that will give you the best chance of saving your child's life then you must hit a target that is a little over one inch in size every single time. Now if you want to kick in the door and start firing at the guys head great. Fire 15 reload and fire 15 more a monkey can pull the trigger but what exactly are you going to accomplish? You have not accomplished anything but killing the bad guy and getting your child killed.
    That's your opinion. You can't tell anybody how the scenario would play out in their home. I respect your resume, if indeed it is true, but again, you can't tell us that you know all the variables that could come into play in a home different from yours or the homes you've seen. Every situation is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    It is great that your sister can shoot a one inch group after "hundreds of rounds" at seven yards but can she walk in pick up a gun, cold, right now or tommorow and do it everytime? Now add the stress of the break in, the stress of clearing the house, and finally the stress of seeing your own child being held at gunpoint? Now can she do it?
    Are you getting competitive with a 17 year old girl?! She's a good shot, I never claimed that she's Marion Cobra. I was giving you an example to help you understand that you're not the only crack shot around. Also, I said she's my WIFE'S sister. That would make her a sister in law ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Their are folks here that could make this shot, there are people here who have served in every conflict in modern history, there are people here who train constantly at some of the best training facilities in the country to keep their skillset up, and sorry but Front Sight is not one of them, and I am not saying I am any better than anyone else but call a spade a spade.
    You stated that their are people who are better with their pocket rocket than you are/were with a full size M9. If that is the case you need to get out more you need to get on the range more.
    As of today 63% said shoot him in the head and call the cops, when all is said and done how many could actually do it? I am not known for sugar coating my responses or my views and I will not do it in this case.
    Again, that is your opinion on Frontsite. Opinions aren't fact. Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter.
    Oooooo, yes call me out about my proficiency with an M9 lol Ever see somebody hold a .5" group rapid fire on the average pistol range? I have. It's amazing no matter what you're shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Everyone would react differently. I realize that with the limited choices given in the OP that many just clicked the button to shoot without thinking about it, I did notice there is now another option. You posted earlier that you would not have time to evaluate all the things mentioned and would take the shot. Fine that is your choice it is not mine, I would evaluate the situation if possible, if you feel you can do it great, happy for you but you will get one chance, no do over's, no wait a minutes, one chance and that is the only point I am trying to make.
    Could you honestly say that you could walk in, see the situation and take the shot, not A shot but THE shot to end this without your child being killed?
    I'm willing to stake my family's LIVES on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Simple fact is like it or not most could not. Have you ever breached a door? Have you ever considered where to hit/kick an interior hollow core door so your foot does not go all the way through leaving you stuck? Do you know where your weapons POA/POI is at different distances? All these things are simply points of consideration. If you don't think you need to think of them by all means don't but all of the above points come from training and experience from people who have done it before.
    As I stated in my first post in this matter right at that moment in time when you find the door kicked is not the time to learn how to clear your house. Right at that moment when you breach the door and find a BG with a gun to your childs head is not the time to learn to make the kind of shot that is needed, but again you do what you need to or think you can do.
    I have! I have also used a Benelli breach model to blow the hinges out from the other side of the wall while my buddies kicked the door in. Once we even drove our HMMVW into it to knock an extra tough steel door down. Do you think a man with the Combat Infantryman's badge would carry a weapon without knowing its every quirk?! You're starting to become redundant. BTW, I've cleared many houses in my time. I think I would be able to clear my own without your help. And guess what? I've got a hidden stairwell with padded carpeting on the stairs. I can clear it and come back from another angle. Not even my kids know it's there because it comes out in my office which is off limits to even the wife. Gotta love old farmhouses!

    And we've all stated that we will do what we will do and why. Also, I didn't post until he refined the situation because it was too vague to start with.


    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I am not knocking anyone's post I do however know which members train or have trained on a regular basis or have the particular background/skillset to do something like this. I have no doubt that BillMo and others could take the actions needed to end this scenario. I would attempt to talk BillMo would not, ok no big deal does not mean my response is better or his is worse the simple fact remains he has the skillset and mindset to make the shot.
    You know who is and isn't training? Don't be silly lol you didn't know about this soldier...
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Finally in answer to your question as to what I would do. Moving past calling 911, clearing the house and so on. If confronted with the OP's scenario I would evaluate the situation first. Time is on my side UNLESS the bad guy pushes the situation. I would look to see what weapon he is carrying, what condition is it in, where other family members are located, are they behind the suspect and so on.
    If dialogue right at that moment helps by all means keep it going. Again the point to all this is you family is safe, period. It makes no difference if the bad guy walks out and is caught by LE or not, this crisis involving your family is done and over with. If the suspect decides to push the situation I am fully confident in my skillset and I know my equipment in such a manner that I could take the one shot and hit the target needed to give my child the best possible chance of survival but I am not going to start shooting multiple rounds hoping to hit the suspect in the head, leg, arm or whereever and hope for the best.
    Unless he decides to shoot them anyways. He may wait for you to open to see him and then as soon as you see him with the gun to your kid's head he may pull the trigger. Or if you open your mouth to try and reason with him, then he might know that you can't multitask under extreme stress either. POW! In that case your hesitation killed them. It's amazing it took you this long to give your answer since you act like you have all the answers. The truth is, there is no telling what would happen, even for the average holier-than-thou professional. You say you're not ripping anybody's post, yet you work hard on dissecting any and every post you disagree with. I posted nothing different than anybody else, yet I caught the majority of the flak. Guess if I had a cool name like tacman I wouldn't be under the microscope. But alas, I named my profile after my DCUs *sigh*

    I'm not going to post anymore regarding this scenario as my input regarding my action and reason for it was not welcome in the first place.

  12. #192
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    413
    Since we are measuring penes here, I'd like to go on record that mine is small and my ego is smaller. Most of this thread is bravado and little more.
    suntzu likes this.

  13. #193
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    NotMallNinja you are correct it has turned into my pee pee is bigger than yours. Sorry this is a long one gang but I wanted to make sure that all the questions were answered. Please excuse any spelling or other errors as it is late and I am tired.

    You "set no standard for anyone" but continually tell us we are wrong. I never claimed to be Michael Strahan, but I am in perfectly good physical condition. I am neither 80 pounds overweight or of old age. I am 28, 6'3" and 235 lbs, I exercise daily, own a treadmill for those rainy and snowy days and sometimes I can be seen chucking lumber just because I'm bored. I will outrun and outwork you ANY DAY you choose. :)

    At any point did I say "YOU" in regards to the 100 yard dash comment? I was using it as an example but I sure am glad you think you can outrun and outwork a 51 year old I may surprise you though. I would be worried if you couldn't. I am glad you exercise daily as do I but alas I have no lumber to chuck so I guess you will outdo me on that. I did notice you did not say outshoot though, but that is just feeding into the pee pee thing so let's not go there.


    I bet a good percentage of us could. Yesterday using .40 and .22 pistols with 8 and 10 round magazines plus one each, I did that advancing the 40 yards from the end of my driveway to the treeline at a jog and hit an old breakroom microwave every time. 20 holes in an unpunctured working device. I'd say that's slightly better than a 6 inch target from across a bedroom. And I'm out of practice.

    Here is simply another difference of opinion, you say a good percentage could, I say they couldn't the difference is I am not butt hurt about it. This drill you did has exactly what to do with the scenario? It is good you are practicing but hitting a microwave oven which is what, 2 ft by 2 ft is a little different than shooting a 1-2 inch target at 7 yards. I did not start the "6 inch target" topic someone else did stating that it was an acceptable standard for accuracy in this situation again I used it as an example as to what others think is acceptable marksmanship for the given scenario.


    That's your opinion. You can't tell anybody how the scenario would play out in their home. I respect your resume, if indeed it is true, but again, you can't tell us that you know all the variables that could come into play in a home different from yours or the homes you've seen. Every situation is different.


    Ummmmmm....yes and? That is my opinion and it said nothing about how the scenario would play out in someone else's home. Unless you know something I don't the laws regarding phyics, ballistics and marksmanship the laws are the same worldwide pretty much.
    You are correct no one could know all the variables never claimed to, again I brought up some of those variables such as the training of the individual, the type of equipment or what the bad guy might do but the basic fundementals of marksmanship and human anatomy are all the same whether it is the bedroom in your house or my living room so you still have to have the skillset and mindset to do it.
    As far as your comments in regards to my resume or lack thereof I do the job I do and receive the salary I do because of what I know and my ability to transfer that knowledge into real world enviroments it matters not whether you believe it or not.


    Are you getting competitive with a 17 year old girl?! She's a good shot, I never claimed that she's Marion Cobra. I was giving you an example to help you understand that you're not the only crack shot around. Also, I said she's my WIFE'S sister. That would make her a sister in law ;)


    I am not getting competitive with anyone. I am glad she is a good shot and she practices. Again I used it as an example. You stated she could shot one inch groups at 7 yards after firing hundreds of rounds of ammo. I merely asked the question could she simply pick up a gun right now and do it today without any warm up or pre practice, in other words "doing it cold?". It is the same question I asked of others and of you.

    Yes I consider myself a good shooter and I worked my butt off to get there and to maintain that level of proficiency. There are folks that are better than me and outshoot me, others I outshoot them. I shoot have shot against SF "A" Team operators, SWAT cops, civilians and get smoked and other days I smoke them, but I don't jump up and down and celebrate and damn sure don't pout about it.
    If a shooter is good I will be the first to tell him and ask for his advice to make me better but on the same token if a person does not shoot well and acts like he/she is the next olympic champion that is where I have a problem and will tell him that also. My gosh you are right that makes her your sister in law not your sister, a thousand pardons.


    Again, that is your opinion on Frontsite. Opinions aren't fact. Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter.
    Oooooo, yes call me out about my proficiency with an M9 lol Ever see somebody hold a .5" group rapid fire on the average pistol range? I have. It's amazing no matter what you're shooting.



    Back to the opinion thing again. There have been numerous posts in regards to Front Sight, two words, not one, with the last word being "SIGHT" not site, since you are so big on correcting errors. Anyways you are correct opinions are not fact but I sure do try to base my opinion on it. In your inital comment you stated that it was one of the top training schools or something like that then in your reply you state Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter. the key change you made was "average shooter".

    I will answer this the same as I have with every post regarding Front Sight. It is a basic training school. For someone who has never been to any formal training it is the cat's meow. Some of their classes allow the average citizen to do things, shoot automatic weapons, go through shoot houses, that they would not get to do otherwise which is fantastic. They may have great trainers and training for the basic shooter however they do have the mentality do it my way or not at all in regards to their techniques. I have never trained with them wherein lies the second half of my "opinion". I do not know if I am even allowed to train there.

    My main problem with Front Sight is with the owner not the training offered per se.

    Myself and a few others who dared questioned Dr. Pizza Guy in regards to him using a video of a young deputy being gunned down as a marketing campaign and his involvement in a Ponzi scheme, the selling of land, homes and so on that did not or never will exist, so we are not in his good graces. One member of Glocktalk who applied for a class was actually sent an email stating that because of his comments on Glocktalk he was banned from training there. So there lies my "opinion" of Front Sight.

    In regards to your proficiency with your M9 you brought it up I didn't. You stated that you have had people with pocket guns outshoot you when you were armed with a full size duty pistol and I merely stated if someone with a pocket rocket, J frame, .380 or whatever, is outshooting you go to the range and shoot more as that is not really up to snuff by anyone's standards. Here is where I get a bit confused. In your reply to my post you tell of your remarkable marksmanship in your driveway against the evil microwave oven and how you could make the cold shot needed on a small target in the heat of the moment but yet someone with a J frame/whatever outshoots you while you are armed with a full size duty gun?

    Yes I have grown up seeing shooters do that very thing at varying distances and it shows they have the fundementals of marksmanship and take pride in their shooting ability. Again this is where you and I differ. I read your post in regards to your father, mine was a bit different. My father is a retired Marine Corps M/Gysgt who shot on the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol team for years and years.
    He was a member of the President's 100 and was a Distinguished Marksman in every category he shot in both rifle and pistol so I learned from the best teachers around. Many of his fellow team mates were chosen for the U.S. Olympic team for several years with my point being this. I stated in an earlier post that the shot itself, a little over an inch or even the T zone at 7 yards, is not in itself difficult if you have the marksmanship ability. The hard part comes having the emotional disconnect and the mindset to take and make the shot.


    I'm willing to stake my family's LIVES on it.

    More power to you because that is exactly what you are going to have to do as I will have to stake my families life on my ability along with everyone else.


    I have! I have also used a Benelli breach model to blow the hinges out from the other side of the wall while my buddies kicked the door in. Once we even drove our HMMVW into it to knock an extra tough steel door down. Do you think a man with the Combat Infantryman's badge would carry a weapon without knowing its every quirk?! You're starting to become redundant. BTW, I've cleared many houses in my time. I think I would be able to clear my own without your help. And guess what? I've got a hidden stairwell with padded carpeting on the stairs. I can clear it and come back from another angle. Not even my kids know it's there because it comes out in my office which is off limits to even the wife. Gotta love old farmhouses!


    Ok again good for you, but that is you. How many forum members or average accountants with a CCW can say the same thing. If you have the experience great but the majority don't. I am happy that you have a secret stairwell/room but guess what? I have a little door in my bathroom next to my toilet that goes under my jacuzzi tub that does not lead anywhere except to the plumbing for the tub, no carpeting just concrete though, so there! On more than one occasion I was ready to do a dynamic entry and before breaching the door reached up and found it to be unlocked so there is more than one way to skin a cat. You are beginning to sound like a 6 year old but whatever flips your cookie.


    You know who is and isn't training? Don't be silly lol you didn't know about this soldier...

    If you would care to look at the numerous threads posted by myself and others in regards to training you would see what I am talking about, and guess what, myself and several others call on the phone, skype and yahoo messenger on a regular basis and talk about this very subject, so I am not being silly when I say who is and isn't training simply look at the topics and the responses. Yep you are right again I don't know about you that is why I proposed questions, actions, reactions, scenarios, variables and so on to you and others to get a response, to get an answer of what you can do an just maybe help somebody else.


    Unless he decides to shoot them anyways. He may wait for you to open to see him and then as soon as you see him with the gun to your kid's head he may pull the trigger. Or if you open your mouth to try and reason with him, then he might know that you can't multitask under extreme stress either. POW! In that case your hesitation killed them. It's amazing it took you this long to give your answer since you act like you have all the answers. The truth is, there is no telling what would happen, even for the average holier-than-thou professional. You say you're not ripping anybody's post, yet you work hard on dissecting any and every post you disagree with. I posted nothing different than anybody else, yet I caught the majority of the flak. Guess if I had a cool name like tacman I wouldn't be under the microscope. But alas, I named my profile after my DCUs *sigh*


    Yep he might shoot them all the minute I call out, he might throw down the gun when confronted your right we never know only the man upstairs does. I presented options and asked questions of what others would do to make them think. Just like Lima stated there are other things to consider in the overall picture. If I am not mistaken I stated what I would do in my original post in this topic but I will go back and look to make sure.

    Yes I analyze and take apart statements it is my mindset but in turn I ask questions at to why or would this work better/worse and so on. You see that is one of the major differences between you and me. You life a simple life I don't (I do not know if you are still in the military or what you do for a living). I am paid to see things that are not right, out of the ordinary and so on then correct them before bad things may happen.

    I don't know about you but I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time it is incorporated into my training whenever possible. I can hold a suspect at gunpoint and talk on the radio at the same time, I can fire my rifle and reload all the while seeking cover. I can disassemble most weapons while reciting a bible passage or answering questions about another totally different weapon, it's called training junior.

    Is it required for the average person to do it? Nope. Do I look down on those that can't or simply don't want to? Nope. I have stated before what is high speed to you is another day at the office for me. It is not my life it is their's and they alone will have to do whatever it takes to survive at that moment.

    Will I continue to analyze, ask questions, give variables, call a spade a spade? You damn right I will so if you don't like my posts, theories, statements or whatever don't reply. I would rather you did reply with specific rebuttal, comments or whatever it keeps it interesting. I do not know how you have come to the conclusion that you have received most of all this abuse. I used a couple of statements from your post simply because it was the closest one to copy from. Again I am sorry if you are offended, feel chastised or just plain butt hurt that was not my intention nor will it be but if you are offended or otherwise butt hurt by these posts and comments maybe you should not participate.

    In regards to my screename it was given to me on the street during the era of the movie "Colors" where Sean Penn played a cop with the nickname "Pacman". One day during after serving a warrant a suspect yelled out "look out it's Pacman". My reply was do I look like a yellow bouncing ball? He simply looked and stated ok "Tacman" then and it stuck. I hope that suppresses the question, schoolyard jealousy or envy regarding my cool screen name. Your screen name makes perfect sense now as I was trying to figure out what it meant.


    I'm not going to post anymore regarding this scenario as my input regarding my action and reason for it was not welcome in the first place.


    Well sorry to see this your input was welcome. Just because someone questions your reasoning does not mean it is a personal attack, but you do as you see fit. I bet you though that our viewpoints are not that far apart. Many a friendship has developed on this forum with people who started out bumping heads. It all starts with a PM up to you though.
    oakchas likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #194
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    7,369
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Just wish I had that luxury during my training to say "hey, the BG is not cooperating." Prepare for the worst and unlikely ya know. My 2 cents.
    There is obviously a divide on this scenario. Good to see your training paid off....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  15. #195
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,891
    Let us Monday morning QB here for a moment. Same scenario except for whatever reason a LEO enters the room. He takes the shot, nails the BG right in the forehead, left and right eye, and nose. Involuntary reaction causes gun to go boom and little girls head blown off.

    Five bucks says you don't go and shake the LEO's hand and say that was sharp shooting Tex. Too bad about that twitchy thing...who would have known.
    NotMallNinja and tacman605 like this.

Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 391011121314 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

a scenario where you would have to make the scene safe in order to check the victim
,

choice of evils defense scenario

,

choice of evils scenario

,
example hostage scenarios
,

explain the choice of evils defense and create a scenario where that defense is likely to be raised.

,
scenano polo shirt
,
scenario armed breakin
,
senarios when you are put into aa sympathetic situation
,
senerio you enter home and turn on the lights and nothing happen what next
,
what is a scenario where the choice of evils defense is likely to be raised
,

why is my first reaction always defensive

,

?explain the choice of evils defense and create a scenario where that defense is likely to be raised.

Click on a term to search for related topics.