Scenario: You come home from work & ........ - Page 3

Scenario: You come home from work & ........

This is a discussion on Scenario: You come home from work & ........ within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'd agree with the "too many variables" comments. If you have a family, this situation should be considered in your emergency planning. Also take this ...

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  • Tell the guy to drop it or die

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  • Shoot him in the head & call the police

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  • Let him escape with your child & call the police

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  • Try to reason with him & tell him that his only way out is to let your child go.

    38 30.16%
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Thread: Scenario: You come home from work & ........

  1. #31
    Member Array RC12's Avatar
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    I'd agree with the "too many variables" comments.

    If you have a family, this situation should be considered in your emergency planning. Also take this into consideration... If theres just a lone thug in the scenario, and he creates a hostage situation, he's most likely scared. Professionals usually don't go solo (unless you've pissed off some sort of FSB hit man, in which case, good luck with that). But back to the point.. A person full of fear and adrenaline are too unpredictable and unstable. You can't predict his actions or reactions, and you can't predict the absolute outcome of your action.

    If your instincts tell you he just wants an escape, not a murder charge, work the leverage to your advantage.


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    I noticed(or possibly missed) no one brought up the issue of "clearing" a building is not a task for everyone especially those with no experience.
    If my son is in the home and there's a possibility that someone broke in, I'll find him immediately or die in the process... after calling the cops of course. As for what I would do in this situation, I have no idea.

  3. #33
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    Lima's response is very well thought out and well written. Truly, clearing is a dangerous chore, even with training. Without training, it could be a fatal mistake. I'd suggest that anyone without clearing training NOT attempt it unless they feel they have no other choice.

    Another variable to bring into this scenario is tunnel vision. Realistically, if you have determined that both your family AND a BG are still in your home, you will almost assuredly get tunnel vision. Are you positive there are no other BG's in the house?
    JD, limatunes and tacman605 like this.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Array RubenZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Okay, there are a lot of stuff going on here that can be dealt with in so many different ways.

    I believe the ultimate question here is not "what would you do if someone had a gun to your child's head" but rather "is your family better served with you making a grand entrance or waiting for authorities to arrive on scene?"

    Let's think about this step by step...



    First thing's first... call 911. This should be a given.

    Step 2: Check to see if my husband's car is in the driveway. HOWEVER, just because my husband's car is in the driveway does not mean that he is still in the house with the kids.

    Step 3: Call the home phone and/or my husband's cell phone. If there is an answer we go from there.

    Step 4: Try to gain intel from OUTSIDE of the residence. As I said before, there is absolutely NO reason to believe that there is anyone in the home at this moment. My husband could have gotten the kids out and gone to a neighbors house to call 911 and is there waiting. Yeah, it would be unusual for him not to call me, too, but why give a bad guy a hostage or walk into a situation without more information.

    Yes, about now I would probably be drawing my firearm but I would still not make entry. I would circle the house looking for other clues that an individual is either still in the home or has left. If there's a strange vehicle parked on the street with someone sitting in the driver's seat and the engine running, then, yeah, there's probably still someone in the house. Is there a car? How did the individual get there? Can you take down a vehicle description? First, you don't know that anyone is in the house, much less where they are.

    Got a good pair of binoculars in the garage or the car you can use to try to get a peek into windows? You should! What can you see?

    You know your house.. going in and getting yourself into trouble means that you can't give responding officers the layout of your home. They are going in blind. You staying outside could mean a more successful response because you can give responders the layout and potential strengths and weaknesses.

    But, let's say it's just getting to you too bad and you decide to go in.



    Okay, well, I hope you've been at least smart about it until now. In our home the doors have key locks. We have the keys stashed. No need to break down doors.

    Anyway, finding an area in the home to stage at would be ideal. Stage in that area and wait, either for an indication of what is going on or authorities. No one is going to be completely silent for very long... especially if there are children involved. Children are likely going to be crying.

    Call out from the staging area. If you don't get an answer you can assume that either a) no one is in the home b) the individuals are unable to respond either through intimidation or injury or c) everyone is dead.

    It's a tough call but in order not to be a victim yourself you still need to be smart about it. If you have any home clearing training you can proceed in that manner. If you have no home clearing training you should stay out. Seriously!! You should go back out. Of course that's harder said than done when you're family is on the line.

    However, if you choose to proceed it should be done carefully. Having done room clearing going to that bedroom door would be a delicate process. It would be likely that officers would have arrived by this time.

    Both fortunately and unfortunately our bedroom is designed very well to be hard to access. Sneaking up on it would be hard and dangerous. Good if you are the good guy held up. Bad if you think your family is in there and want to get to them.

    Now that I'm finally to the bedroom door I'm going to listen. Listen for possible position. Left of right side of the room. It will make a difference in which side of the hall I hug if/when I decide to try to make entrance. Again, I have a key so there's no need to break down the door but the door could be barricaded. I call out again and there's nothing.

    Again, what evidence do I have that someone is still in the home? Any evidence to suggest the individual has left? If I have reason to believe that the individual is gone I may make entry. If I have reason to believe he's still there (an unfamiliar voice, a vehicle still on the street or in the driveway, etc) I might be more cautious.

    There's a whimper in the bedroom... is there any other access point? A window perhaps or another door? An a-joining closet? Is there some way to enter or gain a vantage point that would not be expected?

    If I'm thinking rationally (which, I admit could be VERY hard in this situation) I might choose to back off at this moment. I might choose to make entry.

    Again, depending on what side of the room I think he is at will make a difference in which side of the hallway I hug. I don't want to be stuck in a fatal funnel. I don't want to give myself away right away either. I can unlock the door, open it and retreat to cover and try to pie the room.

    What about my family.. Does my spouse (my husband in this case) seem injured. Is there a way he could gain an advantage by my being there? Is each child accounted for? Do they seem injured?

    He's got a gun to my daughter's head... wow.. yeah.. that would stink.

    If I'm doing my room clearing correctly I should be mostly concealed or under cover and be utilizing my space correctly. I might even have a pretty optimal shot without having to do any negotiation or without even being seen or made any demands of. If you don't think that is possible then you haven't seen what I've seen (PS.. JD is really good at this).

    I've been to trainings where you are required to do room clearing AND deal with hostages. You would be AMAZED at how many people shoot the hostage. It's scary. GOOD shooters who get caught up in the moment and pull their shots or shoot for center mass which just so happens to be the hostage.

    I am proud to say I have yet to shoot the hostage. However, there has been at least once where I felt I could not make the shot and had to give it over to someone else at that distance. Depending on the distance I may or may not feel confident making that shot. I would be loath, however, to put myself into the room.

    If I can see that everyone is safe I'm going to stay out of the room. I might try to create a distraction with conversation so that my husband might act.

    From there it depends a lot on distance, conversation, well-being of my family, etc. If already injured, all bets are off. I see no reason to believe that someone who has injured a man or children to be hesitant to do further harm. They need medical attention and that means making the scene safe any way way I can.

    Well thought out but too much time is passing for me. For all we know wife and daughter could be getting sexually assaulted while calling 911.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenZ View Post
    Well thought out but too much time is passing for me. For all we know wife and daughter could be getting sexually assaulted while calling 911.
    And if you barge in without even a call to 9-1-1 and you fail, what then?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array RubenZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    And if you barge in without even a call to 9-1-1 and you fail, what then?
    True
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenZ View Post
    True
    No matter how much it hurts YOU HAVE to think about these things and use your brains and not your emotions. Yeah, it would be almost impossible to do which is why it's better to let the police handle it from the get-go.

  8. #38
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    I don't know where you all live, but around here they don't send the swat team out for a broken door. To get a timely response, you would have to lie. It would be a long time before anyone showed up for a broken door. What do you tell them? Shots fired? Hostages? Dog died? When an officer does arrive on scene, he will have to deal with you first. If you have your gun out, that will take 15 minutes, as you will most likely be cuffed. If you don't have you weapon drawn, it will take 10 minutes to be disarmed and identified. Best case, you are looking at 30 minutes before any law enforcement even looks at the door. Then you will have 2 or 3 non trained officers clearing your house. That does not sound like good odds to me. Meanwhile, your family lost too much blood, and died. The perp got away by walking out the back door while you were proving your innocence. Does this really sound like a viable option?
    tricolordad likes this.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFLYFYTER View Post
    I don't know where you all live, but around here they don't send the swat team out for a broken door. To get a timely response, you would have to lie. It would be a long time before anyone showed up for a broken door. What do you tell them? Shots fired? Hostages? Dog died? When an officer does arrive on scene, he will have to deal with you first. If you have your gun out, that will take 15 minutes, as you will most likely be cuffed. If you don't have you weapon drawn, it will take 10 minutes to be disarmed and identified. Best case, you are looking at 30 minutes before any law enforcement even looks at the door. Then you will have 2 or 3 non trained officers clearing your house. That does not sound like good odds to me. Meanwhile, your family lost too much blood, and died. The perp got away by walking out the back door while you were proving your innocence. Does this really sound like a viable option?
    I don't know where you live, it doesn't sound realistic to me. Why would the 2 or 3 officers you say responded to your call be un-trained?

    I suggest you go take a class that offers this type of training and see if they'll let you try "your way" in a scenario before any training. Find out how that works for you and let us know. Then, get the training and try it again, let us know what YOU prefer.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    I don't know where you live, it doesn't sound realistic to me. Why would the 2 or 3 officers you say responded to your call be un-trained?

    I suggest you go take a class that offers this type of training and see if they'll let you try "your way" in a scenario before any training. Find out how that works for you and let us know. Then, get the training and try it again, let us know what YOU prefer.
    With all due respect, I never said that law enforcement in your town wasn't trained in special tactics, and hostage type scenarios. I just said mine were not. I know in a city I lived in of 500,000 people in California, they qualified once a year. Shoot some paper, run over here, shoot some paper, reload, shoot some paper, and so on. I do not consider that well trained. I am not saying there aren't any officers that have had tactics training, I'm just saying most departments don't offer that kind of training to every officer in the department. If they did, there would be no swat, as everyone would be swat trained.

  11. #41
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    Well first of all LIMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA glad to see you back it has been to long.

    Ok with that out of the way. Yes call 911 and report the break in, no matter where you live they are not going to send out SWAT for a kicked in door. Now it gets sticky.

    Remember boys and girls we have the advantage right now on the forum because we know whats on the other side of the door, the players and the situation so to speak. In this actual situation all we know is the door is kicked in nothing more so don't let your imagination wander and influence your decisions as to what is happening inside.

    This is the time to back up, take a breath and consider your options. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread comes to mind. Yes there could be very bad things going on in the house while you are outside then again the bad guy may be a very scared 16 year old who only wants to only take stuff to buy his new skateboard but we don't know that at the time. Never forget the ultimate goal everyone leaves alive, period. In this scenario there is one suspect so unless he is really good at multitasking controlling hostages, watching out for threats, maintaining control of his weapon and sexual assault are pretty hard to do at the same time but again you don't know there is only one, always plan for the worst case scenario.

    As has been brought up. Do you know how to clear a house? If you don't this is probably not a good time to learn so that would limit you to staying outside and wait for the troops to arrive. You still need to think about what has been brought up. Is there someone outside now, with you? Look around it's your house you know if something is out of place. If you are skilled enough to clear a house it would do no good to go in, clear the house, find the suspect, be prepared to do whatever only to be hit in the head with a frying pan by the second suspect you never noticed outside the house who came in behind you.

    Let's say you have chosen to go in, cleared the house and are now confronted with the scenario. A metric ton of overload is going to be going through your body right now. First thing, BREATHE. It sounds strange but I have in certain enviroments had to phyically say over the radio or touch a man on the shoulder and tell them relax and breathe. Many things are happening to your body. Heart rate is up, adrenaline has flooded your body, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tremors all or some may come into play.

    Look at the situation as a whole. Who is where, what type of weapon is it? Why you ask does that make a difference? If it is say a DA action revolver it takes a lot of effort to pull the trigger unless the hammer is back which would give you an advantage. Is the suspect scared, does he appear high, nervous, calm and collective? All this is done in the first 30 seconds of the encounter.

    If the bad guy says all I want to do is leave, great let him go. First tell him to let all the family members go and he can walk out the door, THEN LET HIM DO JUST THAT. If he insists on a hostage to make sure it goes his way you may not have a choice in the matter but get the rest out. Tell them to go to the other side of the house and lock themselves in. Do not let them go outside as that is where the bad guy is going. If all goes right the suspect will get to a door drop the hostage and simply leave, do not pursue get you and the child to a position of safety let LE worry about the rest but make sure you call 911 and update them.

    Now should things go the other way. The suspect is not willing to give up anyone, he is backed into a corner and he knows it, his weapon is cocked and in direct contact with your child's head and then he drops the big bomb "Drop your gun or I will kill them". What now? Do you comply? You sure don'twant to give the bad guy another gun or leave yourself disarmed but are you willing to chance it with your child's life.. It is easy to say that you would not give it up but when faced with the scenario and your own child's life in the balance who knows what you would do.

    You now have to answer some hard questions. Do you have the ability to make the shot? No particular range was given but lets say a max distance of 7 yards. That is close range, maybe closer than what you practice on the range but this is not a paper target in a controlled enviroment. To make the shot you need you and your weapon need to be able to shoot no more than a two inch group consistently at this range. Can you and your weapon accomplish this task? If you are using a laser or adjustable sights is your weapon zeroed for this range? If not what is your holdover/under if any?

    What is your target? Let's say for the sake of argument you have a full frontal head shot available. The odds are in your favor and it is a DA revolver, hammer is down. Where are you going to shoot? In order to ensure there is no sympathetic reflex you are going to have to disrupt the message to the brain, this means a shot to the junction of the spinal cord and brain, the Medulla Oblongata.
    In a full frontal head shot, as an example, with a rifle I would aim at the tip of the nose or the upper lip. With a rifle round I know this would penetrate the teeth and tissue and along with the bullet would provide secondary projectiles to hit this spot. With a handgun, depending on the caliber and round, you may not have this penetration.
    The simplest aiming point would be the what is known as the T zone. Imagine a stencil of a capital T with a width of two inches. Place this stencil with the top of the T across your eyes and the long portion going down your face ending at the upper lip, that is your target zone. Can you hit it?
    If you happen to be armed with a smaller caliber the easiest aiming point is the eye socket. Your round does not have penetrate quite as much bone and hard tissue with the orbital bone being the main obstacle and that would give you the desired result.

    I would advise against aiming for the forehead. This is the thickest bone in the head. Yes with a full size duty caliber and good ammo it would penetrate but it may not result in the instant stop you need in this situation. I have seen rounds when they hit the forehead not penetrate but glance off the bone travel under the skin halfway around the head without ever penetrating to the brain. One other thing to consider, what or who is behind the suspect? Should you make the perfect shot but strike another family member the whole thing is kind of a mute point.

    This scenario is not something you can go into cold gang. From clearing the house to making the shot this is something you need to practice and train for. Discuss with your family what to do and more importantly go over in your mind what you will do. Honestly evaluate your skill level and that of your equipment. Practice taking this kind of shot on the range on a hostage type target. Either get a realistic facial target or simply download a photo of a life size face in color and use it. 3D targets, Tactical Ted, can be used. Color in facial features. If they are still around the old styrofoam wig heads are great for this.

    I am fully capable to clear a building. I would still call 911 and may wait for their arrival. Should I choose to enter to the sounds of distress and find the situation described the first thing would be evaluate everything. Try to talk the situation down. This is not the time to push a bad shot or escalate the situation. Should the situation go in my favor I know that my skill level and equipment will allow me to shoot one inch or less at this range. All of my carry guns have fixed sights except for my 1911 and I know what the POA/POI will be so I am prepared to holdover/under if needed.

    Please take this next statement in the context it is written. Taking a shot like this from an equipment and skillset standpoint is not difficult. It is in fact a rather large target area for the given distance. From an emotional standpoint knowing that not only a life is in the balance but your own child's life if is in the balance is what makes the shot so difficult.

    Everyone will have to answer for whatever they do. The first question that would have to be answered though is, Do you have the skillset, mindset and equipment to do it?
    limatunes likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Put the laser three-quarters of an inch low and to the right of his nearest eye, walk toward him and pull the trigger whenever and however he reacts. He will react.
    My reaction exactly.

  13. #43
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    Put the laser three-quarters of an inch low and to the right of his nearest eye, walk toward him and pull the trigger whenever and however he reacts. He will react.

    Wow. Well I guess you can always have more kids, that is if your wife ever forgives you. Not knocking your response but things are not always that easy but go for what you know.

    My reaction exactly.

    Armyman I would have expected nothing less from you.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #44
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    Try to control your emotions, you will feel hate and rage that someone is willing to take the life of your child. Shooting first isnt always the first response, IPC guys, I know a lot of people attend these high speed courses and all that but it will never add up to the real deal. Seriously, if you do not recognize the guy, and depending on the state of emotion he is in, and if I can talk him down to just letting my family go in exchange of letting him go then fine, yea it sucks the BG got away but you cant always get them all. Like tacman said, you dont know who is all in your house before entering that door, and if you dont know how to clear a house, as crappy as it sounds, for the safety of yourself and family, wait for the police. If it came down to you having to take the shot, I hope you are prepared for the outcome, whatever it may be.
    No matter how much training you have, techniques you know, it will never always be the same as reality. I'll admit, before I left to go to Afghanistan, I thought I was ready for anything, from all the training I recieved with my team, and platoon; I learned that training will never come near to the real deal, because in training scenerios, most of them you know what the situation is before it even starts. But when reality hits you dead in the face, tunnel vision does happen, and when people say time goes by slow, thats bs cause it doesnt, seconds go by and your forced to make a choice based on the confidence of your abilities, and when you make a choice, you have to roll with it, no matter what.
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  15. #45
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    No matter what his decision was, he would not be leaving my house without holes in him. I would do my best to deprive him of a court date and the opportunity to commit another violent crime!
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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