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  • Let him escape with your child & call the police

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Scenario: You come home from work & ........

15K views 195 replies 58 participants last post by  pgrass101 
#1 ·
This is the scenario, right before leaving work, you put your carry piece on, you arrive home to find that even though the door is closed, there are obvious signs that the door was forced open. You draw expecting trouble & everything is silent. When you get to the bedroom, the door is closed & locked. After knocking, or calling out loud to see if everything is alright, there is still no sound except for a low whimper. You force the door & find your wife & child(dren) held hostage in the room by a home invader. He has your youngest child at gun point specifically pointing at there head. What do you do?
 
#174 ·
So the guy's just sitting there with my wife and child(ren) in a back bedroom waiting for me to come in with my Glock? I think I'd ask him if he has any more of the stuff he's smoking.

No he's not just waiting there. When I created the scenario for the poll, I envisioned that the home invasion happens literally seconds or minutes before you arrive home. To me, if the BG was alerted, he would hole up in a room with your family hoping that you were just a visitor but using them as insurance in case you weren't. I don't think the scenario is far fetched at all & in fact think it is likely given the circumstances given.
 
#173 ·
Youd think that with the number of times other people posted that theyd do the same as me i wouldnt be catching so much flak...in those few seconds am i supposed to think of all that? All im thinking about is my kids not getting shot, sorry if my opinion differs from yours. How about this...ill protect my family my way and you protect yours in your own fashion.
 
#175 ·
Before you pull the trigger, you have to consider your ability, Can you hit a 6" diameter moving target?? If you graze him all it will do is piss him off and chances are your child will be killed.
NOW, that being said, I would take the shot and 9 more.
I wouldn't just shoot once; it would be multiple shots while moving closer to make sure I stop him.


Ok I have to ask this. How does the above statement end this scenario without ending the life of your child?

Great you fire 10 times while advancing on the bad guy hitting this "6 inch moving target" in the cheek, mouth, eye, ear, forehead and so on. He meanwhile due to either fear, involuntary response or a death roll pulls the trigger once, just once and ends your childs life. Now what? Ooops honey sorry, but the bad guy is dead.

Do you think this guy is gonna sit still while you are advancing and firing? Chances are he will roll away from the threat pulling the child in front of him or on top of him. What now? I realize this is a scenario and there are several endings but come on guys. Can you sit there and honestly say you could do this, cold, with only the training you have had up to this point?
 
#178 ·
So what you're saying is that we're all untrained (by your standards), and that we should all do what you say because only you have enough knowledge to end this scenario well? Just because you're "on the x in afghanistan" doesn't mean that you are the only one who is or has been there or is proficient with their weapon. In the average home invasion situation, your training will amount to jack because it is a different place, different time and will have different rules. I'm willing to bet that on this site, there are more than a few who have served, be it OEF, OIF, Bosnia, Desert Storm/Shield, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea etc...I have also seen a few civvies at the local range and other shooting events who have attended Front Site or a similar training program and have a better proficiency with their little pocket rocket than I had with my M9 at the height of my service. I have also witnessed my wife's 17 year old sister pick up a pistol for the first time in her life and keep a little over a 1" group after only a few hundred rounds from 7 yards.

Since you've constantly questioned everybody else, knocked every response and told us we're all unable to do it: enlighten us. Tell us the answer o accomplished one.
 
#177 ·
My youngest kid is a 3 year old boy that weighs 50 pounds and trying to hold him still for any reason is like trying to keep hold of a greased pig. He would have his hands full before I showed up. I can't even keep my finger pointed at that little turkey. Each scenario is unique, hard to predict.
 
#179 ·
I don't think tacman is saying he's the only one proficient enough to handle this shot, or non-shot...

I think he's trying to say what I'm saying. Until the muzzle is off my child's head, it's a mexican standoff.

I will do whatever I can to make that happen, and no matter what, I am not standing down until he does. His only option for leaving alive is to put down his weapon.

Now, lets make this scenario real.

No changes in the sequence of events... Just the addition of Mike's laser... and adrenaline...

You see something amiss as you arrive home, you decide to clear the house yourself, adrenaline starts to flow... but no real "dump" yet.

As you proceed through the house, time s l o w s w-a-y d--o--w--n (that's what happens to me in adrenaline dump, ymmv.) As you reach the last door which is closed, and you knock on it... If Sam Peckinpah (sp?) hasn't taken over your brain yet, he probably will when you hear the whimper from within.

You force the door. If you kick it in you will see the splintering, cracking, breaking pieces fly through the air. If the lights are off or down, you will see clearly.. If they are on, or you have a flashlight, everything will appear super-bright.

You now see your child in wide eyed horror... And the gun to his/her head... And the finger on the trigger...and the tension in that finger... And you will see any changes in that tension... As you slowly bring your laser sight to just below the perp's closest eye... ... You advance, keeping your sight on his cheek bone... And you see the slightest change in the tension on his trigger... It's an increase... In fact, if it's a firearm with a visible hammer (D A), you see the hammer move a bit, away from the firing pin... The muzzle is still pointed at your child's head... Your wife is saying something, but it sounds like a charlie brown adult...wah wah wah wah wah....

What's your move now, cowboys?
 
#180 ·
You now see your child in wide eyed horror... And the gun to his/her head... And the finger on the trigger...and the tension in that finger... And you will see any changes in that tension... As you slowly bring your laser sight to just below the perp's closest eye... ... You advance, keeping your sight on his cheek bone... And you see the slightest change in the tension on his trigger... It's an increase... In fact, if it's a firearm with a visible hammer (D A), you see the hammer move a bit, away from the firing pin... The muzzle is still pointed at your child's head... Your wife is saying something, but it sounds like a charlie brown adult...wah wah wah wah wah....

What's your move now, cowboys?
If that is the scenario, it's very simple - you have no choice but to take your best shot. Hammer moving back and muzzle at your kid's head? It's a no brainer. Any hesitation means dead kid.
 
#181 ·
Guess I'm old school, talk and tender footin around is to PC for me. I'd start walking towards him, telling him he has 2 choices turn the kid loose or die. Because I'm going to kill him unless he gets the kid turned loose first. And I would do IT! And I think it will show. And I will be close enough to make the shot when I take it, because the barrel may be touching his eye when the gun goes bang.

Maybe I have watched to many Dirty Harry movies. But stale mates don't go well most times. So you may as well screw with his OODA loop and throw it for a tail spin before he has time to think. His thoughts are you will pee in your pants and beg for mercy, when you don't, you have about 2 seconds to end it.


I know some if not most here will say I'm wrong but sometimes you have to let the apples fall as they will.

Can I live with the loss of my child? I think I can because I tried but can you live with the loss if you do nothing and he still kill your child. Because what I see is if you talk and talk and talk at some point he is going to tell you to put down your gun or he will kill the child. Question do you do it or let him shoot you child? If you do you all may or will die. You have already shown you don't want to act but talk and comply, he has control of the situation. You've lost before you got started.

Now the big question here is do YOU have the mindset to pull this action off? I would guess most here do not. Why? Because "It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby".
 
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#183 ·
I happen to agree with the last sentence completely and i applaud your genuine and original response. Now watch everybody tear into a guy telling the truth about what he would do and why. Lol
 
#184 · (Edited)
So what you're saying is that we're all untrained (by your standards), and that we should all do what you say because only you have enough knowledge to end this scenario well? Just because you're "on the x in afghanistan" doesn't mean that you are the only one who is or has been there or is proficient with their weapon. In the average home invasion situation, your training will amount to jack because it is a different place, different time and will have different rules. I'm willing to bet that on this site, there are more than a few who have served, be it OEF, OIF, Bosnia, Desert Storm/Shield, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea etc...I have also seen a few civvies at the local range and other shooting events who have attended Front Site or a similar training program and have a better proficiency with their little pocket rocket than I had with my M9 at the height of my service. I have also witnessed my wife's 17 year old sister pick up a pistol for the first time in her life and keep a little over a 1" group after only a few hundred rounds from 7 yards.

Since you've constantly questioned everybody else, knocked every response and told us we're all unable to do it: enlighten us. Tell us the answer o accomplished one.


As I have stated over and over again I am not claiming to be the shooter's guru or a scuba certified, SF jumpmaster I have merely stated that the average CCW holder on the forum, or in the real world for that matter, despite what there internet voice tells them to type could not make the shot. In regards to my training before becoming a contractor I was a cop for 20 plus years, a professional LE trainer for most of that, and an entry team member and scout/sniper with our tactical team so I am basing my comments on more that being a contractor in a war zone. Your training or lack thereof is on you and you alone. I set no standard for anyone but don't tell me you can run a 10 second 100 yard dash when you have bad knees, are 80 pounds overweight and get out of breath climbing up three steps and expect me to believe you.

Folks have posted that they would kill the bad guy no matter what, they would advance on the shooter firing multiple shots to a "6 inch moving target", would not hesitate, and so on and on. Some, not all, by any means, are the same folks who asked if it is safe to carry a round in the chamber a week ago, have not shot their carry gun in the last three months and then only at three yards because the stats tell them that is how far it will be, have never trained to shoot while moving but now could accomplish breaching a door, shooting on the move or stationary whichever, and hitting a rather small target all without batting an eye and if their child dies in the process so be it. For many stating they could do all this without ever even attempting to try it in a soft, controlled enviroment but now all of a sudden they can do it for real?

As one member stated "shooting is like pointing at a doorknob" simply point at the target and that is where the bullet goes. Yes you can point at the doorknob and you may hit the door but what good does that do in a case like this?

I have merely stated that this is not something that you can go into cold and expect to get the job done. IF you decide to take the one shot that will give you the best chance of saving your child's life then you must hit a target that is a little over one inch in size every single time. Now if you want to kick in the door and start firing at the guys head great. Fire 15 reload and fire 15 more a monkey can pull the trigger but what exactly are you going to accomplish? You have not accomplished anything but killing the bad guy and getting your child killed.

It is great that your sister can shoot a one inch group after "hundreds of rounds" at seven yards but can she walk in pick up a gun, cold, right now or tommorow and do it everytime? Now add the stress of the break in, the stress of clearing the house, and finally the stress of seeing your own child being held at gunpoint? Now can she do it?

Their are folks here that could make this shot, there are people here who have served in every conflict in modern history, there are people here who train constantly at some of the best training facilities in the country to keep their skillset up, and sorry but Front Sight is not one of them, and I am not saying I am any better than anyone else but call a spade a spade.
You stated that their are people who are better with their pocket rocket than you are/were with a full size M9. If that is the case you need to get out more you need to get on the range more.
As of today 63% said shoot him in the head and call the cops, when all is said and done how many could actually do it? I am not known for sugar coating my responses or my views and I will not do it in this case.

Everyone would react differently. I realize that with the limited choices given in the OP that many just clicked the button to shoot without thinking about it, I did notice there is now another option. You posted earlier that you would not have time to evaluate all the things mentioned and would take the shot. Fine that is your choice it is not mine, I would evaluate the situation if possible, if you feel you can do it great, happy for you but you will get one chance, no do over's, no wait a minutes, one chance and that is the only point I am trying to make.
Could you honestly say that you could walk in, see the situation and take the shot, not A shot but THE shot to end this without your child being killed? Simple fact is like it or not most could not. Have you ever breached a door? Have you ever considered where to hit/kick an interior hollow core door so your foot does not go all the way through leaving you stuck? Do you know where your weapons POA/POI is at different distances? All these things are simply points of consideration. If you don't think you need to think of them by all means don't but all of the above points come from training and experience from people who have done it before.
As I stated in my first post in this matter right at that moment in time when you find the door kicked is not the time to learn how to clear your house. Right at that moment when you breach the door and find a BG with a gun to your childs head is not the time to learn to make the kind of shot that is needed, but again you do what you need to or think you can do.

Honestly evaluate your skill level and equipment. Can you shoot a one inch group at 7 yards everytime striking POA/POI? That is what it would take to give you the best odds of ending this with your child alive and things may still go wrong and he may still pull the trigger. This is your child's life in the balance, do you not owe it to them to have the best skills you can? Next time you go to the range set up a target at 7 yards. Put a 1-2 inch dot on the head. Without firing another shot prior walk up, if allowed, no stress factors, no distractions so tell me where is that round going to strike? I and others brought up points to think about that others may or would not think about for consideration, if you don't want to do it don't, it's not my kids life in the balance.

I am not knocking anyone's post I do however know which members train or have trained on a regular basis or have the particular background/skillset to do something like this. I have no doubt that BillMo and others could take the actions needed to end this scenario. I would attempt to talk BillMo would not, ok no big deal does not mean my response is better or his is worse the simple fact remains he has the skillset and mindset to make the shot.

Finally in answer to your question as to what I would do. Moving past calling 911, clearing the house and so on. If confronted with the OP's scenario I would evaluate the situation first. Time is on my side UNLESS the bad guy pushes the situation. I would look to see what weapon he is carrying, what condition is it in, where other family members are located, are they behind the suspect and so on.
If dialogue right at that moment helps by all means keep it going. Again the point to all this is you family is safe, period. It makes no difference if the bad guy walks out and is caught by LE or not, this crisis involving your family is done and over with.

If the suspect decides to push the situation I am fully confident in my skillset and I know my equipment in such a manner that I could take the one shot and hit the target needed to give my child the best possible chance of survival but I am not going to start shooting multiple rounds hoping to hit the suspect in the head, leg, arm or whereever and hope for the best.
 
#191 ·
I set no standard for anyone but don't tell me you can run a 10 second 100 yard dash when you have bad knees, are 80 pounds overweight and get out of breath climbing up three steps and expect me to believe you.
You "set no standard for anyone" but continually tell us we are wrong. I never claimed to be Michael Strahan, but I am in perfectly good physical condition. I am neither 80 pounds overweight or of old age. I am 28, 6'3" and 235 lbs, I exercise daily, own a treadmill for those rainy and snowy days and sometimes I can be seen chucking lumber just because I'm bored. I will outrun and outwork you ANY DAY you choose. :)

Folks have posted that they would kill the bad guy no matter what, they would advance on the shooter firing multiple shots to a "6 inch moving target", would not hesitate, and so on and on. Some, not all, by any means, are the same folks who asked if it is safe to carry a round in the chamber a week ago, have not shot their carry gun in the last three months and then only at three yards because the stats tell them that is how far it will be, have never trained to shoot while moving but now could accomplish breaching a door, shooting on the move or stationary whichever, and hitting a rather small target all without batting an eye and if their child dies in the process so be it. For many stating they could do all this without ever even attempting to try it in a soft, controlled enviroment but now all of a sudden they can do it for real?

As one member stated "shooting is like pointing at a doorknob" simply point at the target and that is where the bullet goes. Yes you can point at the doorknob and you may hit the door but what good does that do in a case like this?
I bet a good percentage of us could. Yesterday using .40 and .22 pistols with 8 and 10 round magazines plus one each, I did that advancing the 40 yards from the end of my driveway to the treeline at a jog and hit an old breakroom microwave every time. 20 holes in an unpunctured working device. I'd say that's slightly better than a 6 inch target from across a bedroom. And I'm out of practice.

I have merely stated that this is not something that you can go into cold and expect to get the job done. IF you decide to take the one shot that will give you the best chance of saving your child's life then you must hit a target that is a little over one inch in size every single time. Now if you want to kick in the door and start firing at the guys head great. Fire 15 reload and fire 15 more a monkey can pull the trigger but what exactly are you going to accomplish? You have not accomplished anything but killing the bad guy and getting your child killed.
That's your opinion. You can't tell anybody how the scenario would play out in their home. I respect your resume, if indeed it is true, but again, you can't tell us that you know all the variables that could come into play in a home different from yours or the homes you've seen. Every situation is different.

It is great that your sister can shoot a one inch group after "hundreds of rounds" at seven yards but can she walk in pick up a gun, cold, right now or tommorow and do it everytime? Now add the stress of the break in, the stress of clearing the house, and finally the stress of seeing your own child being held at gunpoint? Now can she do it?
Are you getting competitive with a 17 year old girl?! She's a good shot, I never claimed that she's Marion Cobra. I was giving you an example to help you understand that you're not the only crack shot around. Also, I said she's my WIFE'S sister. That would make her a sister in law ;)

Their are folks here that could make this shot, there are people here who have served in every conflict in modern history, there are people here who train constantly at some of the best training facilities in the country to keep their skillset up, and sorry but Front Sight is not one of them, and I am not saying I am any better than anyone else but call a spade a spade.
You stated that their are people who are better with their pocket rocket than you are/were with a full size M9. If that is the case you need to get out more you need to get on the range more.
As of today 63% said shoot him in the head and call the cops, when all is said and done how many could actually do it? I am not known for sugar coating my responses or my views and I will not do it in this case.
Again, that is your opinion on Frontsite. Opinions aren't fact. Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter.
Oooooo, yes call me out about my proficiency with an M9 lol Ever see somebody hold a .5" group rapid fire on the average pistol range? I have. It's amazing no matter what you're shooting.

Everyone would react differently. I realize that with the limited choices given in the OP that many just clicked the button to shoot without thinking about it, I did notice there is now another option. You posted earlier that you would not have time to evaluate all the things mentioned and would take the shot. Fine that is your choice it is not mine, I would evaluate the situation if possible, if you feel you can do it great, happy for you but you will get one chance, no do over's, no wait a minutes, one chance and that is the only point I am trying to make.
Could you honestly say that you could walk in, see the situation and take the shot, not A shot but THE shot to end this without your child being killed?
I'm willing to stake my family's LIVES on it.
Simple fact is like it or not most could not. Have you ever breached a door? Have you ever considered where to hit/kick an interior hollow core door so your foot does not go all the way through leaving you stuck? Do you know where your weapons POA/POI is at different distances? All these things are simply points of consideration. If you don't think you need to think of them by all means don't but all of the above points come from training and experience from people who have done it before.
As I stated in my first post in this matter right at that moment in time when you find the door kicked is not the time to learn how to clear your house. Right at that moment when you breach the door and find a BG with a gun to your childs head is not the time to learn to make the kind of shot that is needed, but again you do what you need to or think you can do.
I have! I have also used a Benelli breach model to blow the hinges out from the other side of the wall while my buddies kicked the door in. Once we even drove our HMMVW into it to knock an extra tough steel door down. Do you think a man with the Combat Infantryman's badge would carry a weapon without knowing its every quirk?! You're starting to become redundant. BTW, I've cleared many houses in my time. I think I would be able to clear my own without your help. And guess what? I've got a hidden stairwell with padded carpeting on the stairs. I can clear it and come back from another angle. Not even my kids know it's there because it comes out in my office which is off limits to even the wife. Gotta love old farmhouses!

And we've all stated that we will do what we will do and why. Also, I didn't post until he refined the situation because it was too vague to start with.


I am not knocking anyone's post I do however know which members train or have trained on a regular basis or have the particular background/skillset to do something like this. I have no doubt that BillMo and others could take the actions needed to end this scenario. I would attempt to talk BillMo would not, ok no big deal does not mean my response is better or his is worse the simple fact remains he has the skillset and mindset to make the shot.
You know who is and isn't training? Don't be silly lol you didn't know about this soldier...
Finally in answer to your question as to what I would do. Moving past calling 911, clearing the house and so on. If confronted with the OP's scenario I would evaluate the situation first. Time is on my side UNLESS the bad guy pushes the situation. I would look to see what weapon he is carrying, what condition is it in, where other family members are located, are they behind the suspect and so on.
If dialogue right at that moment helps by all means keep it going. Again the point to all this is you family is safe, period. It makes no difference if the bad guy walks out and is caught by LE or not, this crisis involving your family is done and over with. If the suspect decides to push the situation I am fully confident in my skillset and I know my equipment in such a manner that I could take the one shot and hit the target needed to give my child the best possible chance of survival but I am not going to start shooting multiple rounds hoping to hit the suspect in the head, leg, arm or whereever and hope for the best.
Unless he decides to shoot them anyways. He may wait for you to open to see him and then as soon as you see him with the gun to your kid's head he may pull the trigger. Or if you open your mouth to try and reason with him, then he might know that you can't multitask under extreme stress either. POW! In that case your hesitation killed them. It's amazing it took you this long to give your answer since you act like you have all the answers. The truth is, there is no telling what would happen, even for the average holier-than-thou professional. You say you're not ripping anybody's post, yet you work hard on dissecting any and every post you disagree with. I posted nothing different than anybody else, yet I caught the majority of the flak. Guess if I had a cool name like tacman I wouldn't be under the microscope. But alas, I named my profile after my DCUs *sigh*

I'm not going to post anymore regarding this scenario as my input regarding my action and reason for it was not welcome in the first place.
 
#187 ·
You now see your child in wide eyed horror... And the gun to his/her head... And the finger on the trigger...and the tension in that finger... And you will see any changes in that tension... As you slowly bring your laser sight to just below the perp's closest eye... ... You advance, keeping your sight on his cheek bone... And you see the slightest change in the tension on his trigger... It's an increase... In fact, if it's a firearm with a visible hammer (D A), you see the hammer move a bit, away from the firing pin... The muzzle is still pointed at your child's head... Your wife is saying something, but it sounds like a charlie brown adult...wah wah wah wah wah....

What's your move now, cowboys?


You are now forced into the positon you have to take the shot. As I said before this is not the time to be learning on the job, you should already have that skillset.

I will say again just to clarify and make sure everyone understands. At this point you have to do something, the burning question is do you have the skillset, mindset and equipment to do the job right?
 
#193 ·
NotMallNinja you are correct it has turned into my pee pee is bigger than yours. Sorry this is a long one gang but I wanted to make sure that all the questions were answered. Please excuse any spelling or other errors as it is late and I am tired.

You "set no standard for anyone" but continually tell us we are wrong. I never claimed to be Michael Strahan, but I am in perfectly good physical condition. I am neither 80 pounds overweight or of old age. I am 28, 6'3" and 235 lbs, I exercise daily, own a treadmill for those rainy and snowy days and sometimes I can be seen chucking lumber just because I'm bored. I will outrun and outwork you ANY DAY you choose. :)

At any point did I say "YOU" in regards to the 100 yard dash comment? I was using it as an example but I sure am glad you think you can outrun and outwork a 51 year old I may surprise you though. I would be worried if you couldn't. I am glad you exercise daily as do I but alas I have no lumber to chuck so I guess you will outdo me on that. I did notice you did not say outshoot though, but that is just feeding into the pee pee thing so let's not go there.


I bet a good percentage of us could. Yesterday using .40 and .22 pistols with 8 and 10 round magazines plus one each, I did that advancing the 40 yards from the end of my driveway to the treeline at a jog and hit an old breakroom microwave every time. 20 holes in an unpunctured working device. I'd say that's slightly better than a 6 inch target from across a bedroom. And I'm out of practice.

Here is simply another difference of opinion, you say a good percentage could, I say they couldn't the difference is I am not butt hurt about it. This drill you did has exactly what to do with the scenario? It is good you are practicing but hitting a microwave oven which is what, 2 ft by 2 ft is a little different than shooting a 1-2 inch target at 7 yards. I did not start the "6 inch target" topic someone else did stating that it was an acceptable standard for accuracy in this situation again I used it as an example as to what others think is acceptable marksmanship for the given scenario.


That's your opinion. You can't tell anybody how the scenario would play out in their home. I respect your resume, if indeed it is true, but again, you can't tell us that you know all the variables that could come into play in a home different from yours or the homes you've seen. Every situation is different.


Ummmmmm....yes and? That is my opinion and it said nothing about how the scenario would play out in someone else's home. Unless you know something I don't the laws regarding phyics, ballistics and marksmanship the laws are the same worldwide pretty much.
You are correct no one could know all the variables never claimed to, again I brought up some of those variables such as the training of the individual, the type of equipment or what the bad guy might do but the basic fundementals of marksmanship and human anatomy are all the same whether it is the bedroom in your house or my living room so you still have to have the skillset and mindset to do it.
As far as your comments in regards to my resume or lack thereof I do the job I do and receive the salary I do because of what I know and my ability to transfer that knowledge into real world enviroments it matters not whether you believe it or not.


Are you getting competitive with a 17 year old girl?! She's a good shot, I never claimed that she's Marion Cobra. I was giving you an example to help you understand that you're not the only crack shot around. Also, I said she's my WIFE'S sister. That would make her a sister in law ;)


I am not getting competitive with anyone. I am glad she is a good shot and she practices. Again I used it as an example. You stated she could shot one inch groups at 7 yards after firing hundreds of rounds of ammo. I merely asked the question could she simply pick up a gun right now and do it today without any warm up or pre practice, in other words "doing it cold?". It is the same question I asked of others and of you.

Yes I consider myself a good shooter and I worked my butt off to get there and to maintain that level of proficiency. There are folks that are better than me and outshoot me, others I outshoot them. I shoot have shot against SF "A" Team operators, SWAT cops, civilians and get smoked and other days I smoke them, but I don't jump up and down and celebrate and damn sure don't pout about it.
If a shooter is good I will be the first to tell him and ask for his advice to make me better but on the same token if a person does not shoot well and acts like he/she is the next olympic champion that is where I have a problem and will tell him that also. My gosh you are right that makes her your sister in law not your sister, a thousand pardons.


Again, that is your opinion on Frontsite. Opinions aren't fact. Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter.
Oooooo, yes call me out about my proficiency with an M9 lol Ever see somebody hold a .5" group rapid fire on the average pistol range? I have. It's amazing no matter what you're shooting.



Back to the opinion thing again. There have been numerous posts in regards to Front Sight, two words, not one, with the last word being "SIGHT" not site, since you are so big on correcting errors. Anyways you are correct opinions are not fact but I sure do try to base my opinion on it. In your inital comment you stated that it was one of the top training schools or something like that then in your reply you state Show me a study that proves that Frontsite does nothing for the average shooter. the key change you made was "average shooter".

I will answer this the same as I have with every post regarding Front Sight. It is a basic training school. For someone who has never been to any formal training it is the cat's meow. Some of their classes allow the average citizen to do things, shoot automatic weapons, go through shoot houses, that they would not get to do otherwise which is fantastic. They may have great trainers and training for the basic shooter however they do have the mentality do it my way or not at all in regards to their techniques. I have never trained with them wherein lies the second half of my "opinion". I do not know if I am even allowed to train there.

My main problem with Front Sight is with the owner not the training offered per se.

Myself and a few others who dared questioned Dr. Pizza Guy in regards to him using a video of a young deputy being gunned down as a marketing campaign and his involvement in a Ponzi scheme, the selling of land, homes and so on that did not or never will exist, so we are not in his good graces. One member of Glocktalk who applied for a class was actually sent an email stating that because of his comments on Glocktalk he was banned from training there. So there lies my "opinion" of Front Sight.

In regards to your proficiency with your M9 you brought it up I didn't. You stated that you have had people with pocket guns outshoot you when you were armed with a full size duty pistol and I merely stated if someone with a pocket rocket, J frame, .380 or whatever, is outshooting you go to the range and shoot more as that is not really up to snuff by anyone's standards. Here is where I get a bit confused. In your reply to my post you tell of your remarkable marksmanship in your driveway against the evil microwave oven and how you could make the cold shot needed on a small target in the heat of the moment but yet someone with a J frame/whatever outshoots you while you are armed with a full size duty gun?

Yes I have grown up seeing shooters do that very thing at varying distances and it shows they have the fundementals of marksmanship and take pride in their shooting ability. Again this is where you and I differ. I read your post in regards to your father, mine was a bit different. My father is a retired Marine Corps M/Gysgt who shot on the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol team for years and years.
He was a member of the President's 100 and was a Distinguished Marksman in every category he shot in both rifle and pistol so I learned from the best teachers around. Many of his fellow team mates were chosen for the U.S. Olympic team for several years with my point being this. I stated in an earlier post that the shot itself, a little over an inch or even the T zone at 7 yards, is not in itself difficult if you have the marksmanship ability. The hard part comes having the emotional disconnect and the mindset to take and make the shot.


I'm willing to stake my family's LIVES on it.

More power to you because that is exactly what you are going to have to do as I will have to stake my families life on my ability along with everyone else.


I have! I have also used a Benelli breach model to blow the hinges out from the other side of the wall while my buddies kicked the door in. Once we even drove our HMMVW into it to knock an extra tough steel door down. Do you think a man with the Combat Infantryman's badge would carry a weapon without knowing its every quirk?! You're starting to become redundant. BTW, I've cleared many houses in my time. I think I would be able to clear my own without your help. And guess what? I've got a hidden stairwell with padded carpeting on the stairs. I can clear it and come back from another angle. Not even my kids know it's there because it comes out in my office which is off limits to even the wife. Gotta love old farmhouses!


Ok again good for you, but that is you. How many forum members or average accountants with a CCW can say the same thing. If you have the experience great but the majority don't. I am happy that you have a secret stairwell/room but guess what? I have a little door in my bathroom next to my toilet that goes under my jacuzzi tub that does not lead anywhere except to the plumbing for the tub, no carpeting just concrete though, so there! On more than one occasion I was ready to do a dynamic entry and before breaching the door reached up and found it to be unlocked so there is more than one way to skin a cat. You are beginning to sound like a 6 year old but whatever flips your cookie.


You know who is and isn't training? Don't be silly lol you didn't know about this soldier...

If you would care to look at the numerous threads posted by myself and others in regards to training you would see what I am talking about, and guess what, myself and several others call on the phone, skype and yahoo messenger on a regular basis and talk about this very subject, so I am not being silly when I say who is and isn't training simply look at the topics and the responses. Yep you are right again I don't know about you that is why I proposed questions, actions, reactions, scenarios, variables and so on to you and others to get a response, to get an answer of what you can do an just maybe help somebody else.


Unless he decides to shoot them anyways. He may wait for you to open to see him and then as soon as you see him with the gun to your kid's head he may pull the trigger. Or if you open your mouth to try and reason with him, then he might know that you can't multitask under extreme stress either. POW! In that case your hesitation killed them. It's amazing it took you this long to give your answer since you act like you have all the answers. The truth is, there is no telling what would happen, even for the average holier-than-thou professional. You say you're not ripping anybody's post, yet you work hard on dissecting any and every post you disagree with. I posted nothing different than anybody else, yet I caught the majority of the flak. Guess if I had a cool name like tacman I wouldn't be under the microscope. But alas, I named my profile after my DCUs *sigh*


Yep he might shoot them all the minute I call out, he might throw down the gun when confronted your right we never know only the man upstairs does. I presented options and asked questions of what others would do to make them think. Just like Lima stated there are other things to consider in the overall picture. If I am not mistaken I stated what I would do in my original post in this topic but I will go back and look to make sure.

Yes I analyze and take apart statements it is my mindset but in turn I ask questions at to why or would this work better/worse and so on. You see that is one of the major differences between you and me. You life a simple life I don't (I do not know if you are still in the military or what you do for a living). I am paid to see things that are not right, out of the ordinary and so on then correct them before bad things may happen.

I don't know about you but I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time it is incorporated into my training whenever possible. I can hold a suspect at gunpoint and talk on the radio at the same time, I can fire my rifle and reload all the while seeking cover. I can disassemble most weapons while reciting a bible passage or answering questions about another totally different weapon, it's called training junior.

Is it required for the average person to do it? Nope. Do I look down on those that can't or simply don't want to? Nope. I have stated before what is high speed to you is another day at the office for me. It is not my life it is their's and they alone will have to do whatever it takes to survive at that moment.

Will I continue to analyze, ask questions, give variables, call a spade a spade? You damn right I will so if you don't like my posts, theories, statements or whatever don't reply. I would rather you did reply with specific rebuttal, comments or whatever it keeps it interesting. I do not know how you have come to the conclusion that you have received most of all this abuse. I used a couple of statements from your post simply because it was the closest one to copy from. Again I am sorry if you are offended, feel chastised or just plain butt hurt that was not my intention nor will it be but if you are offended or otherwise butt hurt by these posts and comments maybe you should not participate.

In regards to my screename it was given to me on the street during the era of the movie "Colors" where Sean Penn played a cop with the nickname "Pacman". One day during after serving a warrant a suspect yelled out "look out it's Pacman". My reply was do I look like a yellow bouncing ball? He simply looked and stated ok "Tacman" then and it stuck. I hope that suppresses the question, schoolyard jealousy or envy regarding my cool screen name. Your screen name makes perfect sense now as I was trying to figure out what it meant.


I'm not going to post anymore regarding this scenario as my input regarding my action and reason for it was not welcome in the first place.


Well sorry to see this your input was welcome. Just because someone questions your reasoning does not mean it is a personal attack, but you do as you see fit. I bet you though that our viewpoints are not that far apart. Many a friendship has developed on this forum with people who started out bumping heads. It all starts with a PM up to you though.
 
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#195 ·
Let us Monday morning QB here for a moment. Same scenario except for whatever reason a LEO enters the room. He takes the shot, nails the BG right in the forehead, left and right eye, and nose. Involuntary reaction causes gun to go boom and little girls head blown off.

Five bucks says you don't go and shake the LEO's hand and say that was sharp shooting Tex. Too bad about that twitchy thing...who would have known.
 
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