Scenario: You come home from work & ........

I have a couple of issues with the unrealistic scenario. Our training should have us calling 911 when we see the door broken. Second after calling 911 stay out of the house and try to contact the family via cellphone. If I did enter the house and hear a whimper I wouldn't call out and let the BG know I am on the other side of a hollow core door so he can shoot me.
In my situation my wife would have shot him with my Vaquero before he took them hostage.
Good discussion points but an unrealistic scenario with multiple training violations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tacman605

Not trying to put down anyone's responses here, everyone would do what they had to do.

The question I am wondering about is why take the shot if you don't have to? The ultimate goal is everyone stays alive. Period. If the suspect walks out with no one harmed the day is a victory let LE deal with him. I am getting the impression from some of the responses that no matter what the bad guy does he will die. To me this seems like you will extract your revenge because he has offended you by his actions and will die by your hand simply because he has pissed you off.

In regards to the statements made in regards to targeting other areas of the body, legs, arms, neck and so on in the OP it stated the BG has a gun to the head of your child/SO. Yes shooting him in the leg, shoulder, neck and so on will cause him pain but he is still able to pull the trigger. Suppose you do shoot him in the leg, now he is scared and in pain and knows you will shoot him again. He is now completely backed into the corner and has nothing to lose by pulling the trigger.

In situations like this, although hypothetical, if you decide that you have suffcient skill, equipment and mindset to take the shot, you are going to get one chance to make a final impression you need to make sure, if you have to and are up to it, to end the situation then and there. The big question still remains is "Are you and your equipment up to it?".

In regards to the "not the time for conversations" statements, if talking to the BG brings the situation to a close with everyone alive and well then I or someone else will sit there and talk to the cow's come home. If shooting the suspect in the head everytime was the legal, moral and ethical thing to do LE and others involved with hostage type situations would simply take the shot everytime, but it isn't. If I could avoid killing someone in front of my family simply by talking to the guy I would do it. If he forced my hand then I would take whatever actions needed at that time.

To each his own though, again not knocking anyone's responses do whatever you think is needed at the time but be careful not to let your ego, pride and emotions rule the day.

---

Very good points, tacman. I do agree. Even though, in my last post I specifically said, "If I did things right and the stars aligned I might be able to make a shot without even being seen or having to interact with the hostage taker. That is ideal."

In my mind I'm seeing myself opening the door and immediately shooting back into cover. He doesn't see me and all he sees is an empty doorway. From that cover I line up the perfect shot and I take it. That is a 1 in a zillion chance. But, for me, I feel a little more prone to take the shot first if I have one because if I can get that perfect shot I don't want to waste it.. especially if I can't account for my other family members or think one or all of them are wounded. That shot may never come around again and the lives of my family are on the line.

In my minds eye I'm seeing a hardened expression with blood lust in his eyes but, of course, that may not be the case. He may be more than happy to put my child down and leave if given the option and you are very right that that option should be given to him.

"Put her down now and you can walk out of here!"

I don't think I would say, "Put her down or I'll kill you." That kind of threat is going to make him NOT want to put her down. He has a human shield for a reason and he's not going to give it up if he thinks he's in danger of being killed. I think threatening death right off the bat amps things up.

I read something not too long ago (not sure where.. I'll have to look) that many criminals resort to violence only when they feel like they cannot escape and it is their only option as a means of escape.

In desperation at hearing me come home he might have grabbed my daughter not really knowing his intent. Now that I'm there and threatening to kill him he very well may start thinking violence to her or another family member may be his only way out. But if I get there and say, "Hey, put her down and you can walk out of here." It might be exactly what he does because he doesn't feel cornered or threatened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by limatunes

Why would you have to lie and why would you be detained?

"911, what is your emergency?"
"I live at xyz, abc. I just arrived home from work and see my backdoor is broken in. My wife and children stay home all day and her car is still in the driveway. I've called to them and there is no answer. No answer on her cell phone. I believe someone is in our home and they may be holding my family hostage."

If that doesn't get a rapid response I don't know what will!!! And, see... no lying?

Also, when you see lights, put your gun in your holster and wait for instructions... no need to be detained and questioned.

---

But, they will tell you not to go in your house. (That would be fine if help could get there in 1-2 min.) But, where I live it could take up to 45min for "ONE" deputy to arrive. The time could be even longer if the deputy felt he needed backup to clear the home.

I'm not waiting outside my home for much longer than a couple of minutes if I think my wife & children could be inside dying. If your spouse or child is inside bleeding out, this means the "golden" hour for medical help is going to be lost.

Have you ever seen anyone shot; then bleed out in front of you while time ticked away waiting for help?

I have!

It's an agonizing thing to watch; especially if the person remains conscious begging for help! (To me, this is the most unacceptable scenario I can think of for a spouse or child.)

-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by limatunes

Not trying to be argumentative but I'm curious as to what you consider biased about our viewpoint?

---

I thought JD was a city LEO? (Sorry if I was mistaken.)

I really don't mean anything "negative" at all. (Please forgive me if I came across that way.)

I was a deputy is a large county almost 30yrs ago. We had a large metropolitan area and lots of rural areas. We worked with the city sometimes & tried to provide extra help if called on. (Back then, all officers usually worked "solo".)

I've also worked with LEOs in city departments, county agencies and state troopers is several southern states as a civilian. What I've discovered from my experiences is "city" LEOs are a lot more prone to believe that waiting for the Calvary & backup to arrive is the only way to go.

On the other hand, county & state officers that work MUST alone seem to understand that there are "certain" times where you as a civilian must do what you gotta do; because help might not be able to arrive in time to protect you or your family.

County & state officers who have to work in more rural areas seem to have a different & more independent mindset than their "city" counterparts. (I guess that's where I'm coming from.)

-

First off I didn't make a selection in the poll as I wouldn't make any of those decisions based on the secenario.

Second, Not trying to be 'instructive' here, but as someone who has been at gunpoint twice; "You don't know how your going to react until you actually find yourself in that situation." All the training in the world can prepare you but it still won't predict how you will react.

Third, as already stated there would be many variables affecting the outcome that weren't listed making it hard to respond.

Fourth, I carry a gun for self defense, not offense. I am not a trained LEO. I take lots of training to prepare myself for all types of scenarios I can't avoid.

Personally I really like Limas' post concerning possible responses. I think that bringing LE onto the scene is paramount. Dealing with a hostage situation isn't the same thing as punching holes in paper at the range or participating in IDPA events (I do both). Clearing a house is another professional matter best handled by those better trained for it (I have trained for this as well, but only in the event I have no other choice).

Coming to the conclusion that your family only has minutes to live when you discover there has been a possible break-in could in fact put them in further danger. Only fools rush in. By doing so, as this scenario suggest, you have limited yourself to three choices; Shoot BG, comply with BG, or turn and run.

OK. Just for the sake of the scenario/poll lets put myself in the face-off situation. Consider this; since I just cleared the house with my weapon drawn and now have it pointed at the BG I take the shot. Why? Because you don't ever pull a weapon unless you are going to use it. Never use it as a means to 'gain an edge' in a conversation. If you didn't intend to shoot a BG when you pulled your weapon then you never should have done so in the first place.

If you trained for that kind of shot the advantage in taking it is only there for a split second. To hesitate is to die. And you may have to live with shooting your child. Are you ready to do that? Are you sure? The feeling 'I wish I had done more', is nothing to the feeling of your child having died from your gunshot. Me, I'm outside the home with weapon drawn waiting for LE to arrive on the scene. If they don't arrive in a reasonable time then I tell the 911 operator I'm going in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

I thought JD was a city LEO? (Sorry if I was mistaken.)

I really don't mean anything "negative" at all. (Please forgive me if I came across that way.)

I was a deputy is a large county almost 30yrs ago. We had a large metropolitan area and lots of rural areas. We worked with the city sometimes & tried to provide extra help if called on. (Back then, all officers usually worked "solo".)

I've also worked with LEOs in city departments, county agencies and state troopers is several southern states as a civilian. What I've discovered form my experiences is "city" LEOs are a lot more prone to believe that waiting for the Calvary & backup to arrive is the only way to go.

On the other hand, county & state officers that work MUST alone seem to understand that there are "certain" times where you as a civilian must do what you gotta do because they might not be able to arrive in time to protect your or your family. County & state officers seem to have a different & more independent mindset than their "city" counterparts. (I guess that's where I'm coming from.)

-

---

Nope, never been on the job, have toyed around the idea with joining as a reserve deputy/officer but our county does not have a reserves, the neighboring county where I work and where we spend a lot of time has a residency requirement. There are a couple of smaller city depts in the area that I've thought about joining as a reserve officer but haven't really followed up on it.



Regarding the scenario
Again we're not saying that you HAVE to wait, only that some may choose to pending on the skill level and ability to handle such a mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

But, they will tell you not to go in your house. (That would be fine if help could get there in 1-2 min.) But, where I live it could take up to 45min for "ONE" deputy to arrive. The time could be even longer if the deputy felt he needed backup to clear the home.

I'm not waiting outside my home for much longer than a couple of minutes if I think my wife & children could be inside dying. If your spouse or child is inside bleeding out, this means the "golden" hour for medical help is going to be lost.

Have you ever seen anyone shot; then bleed out in front of you while time ticked away waiting for help?

I have!

It's an agonizing thing to watch; especially if the person remains conscious begging for help! (To me, this is the most unacceptable scenario I can think of for a spouse or child.)

-

---

The 9-1-1 operator can also tell us that we're on Mars, doesn't mean it's true. Look how well "Stay in the house" worked with Joe Horn. They can suggest someone not enter all they want, they have no ability to prevent anyone from entering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JD

No one said you have to stay on the line with them while searching your home.

Hi 911, I just returned home to to find "X", I have reason to believe that bad guys are in my house and my family may be injured, send PD and 1st Responders. this is my description, I'm armed and going in to search for my family *CLICK* They have recorders, they can play back your call. Don't even give them a chance to speak if you think you're that short of time. But get the ball rolling on some support.

---

Now regarding the lone wolf etc. of county vs. city, if you were responding to such an incident would you just run in the house or would you call dispatch and let them know you're on scene and entering such a situation and request assistance from whoever is available?

As for finding someone bleeding out, I'd rather have an ambulance all ready in route BEFORE I find a loved one bleeding out so that I don't have to worry about calling 9-1-1 DURING/AFTER initial life saving steps.


Like I said in a previous post, what if you are are wounded in the fray? Who's going to call for help if all of you end up incapacitated? The bad guy? If he's able to get the hell out of Dodge he's going to leave you all there bleeding on the floor and be gone.

9-1-1 can't keep me on the phone and yes response times vary, and that's why I and others advocate getting the ball rolling on assistance earlier rather than later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

But, they will tell you not to go in your house. (That would be fine if help could get there in 1-2 min.) But, where I live it could take up to 45min for "ONE" deputy to arrive. The time could be even longer if the deputy felt he needed backup to clear the home.

I'm not waiting outside my home for much longer than a couple of minutes if I think my wife & children could be inside dying. If your spouse or child is inside bleeding out, this means the "golden" hour for medical help is going to be lost.

Have you ever seen anyone shot; then bleed out in front of you while time ticked away waiting for help?

I have!

It's an agonizing thing to watch; especially if the person remains conscious begging for help! (To me, this is the most unacceptable scenario I can think of for a spouse or child.)

-

---

No lawyer here but from what I understand the 911 dispatcher has no authority to tell you what you can and can not do. We heard all of this after the Zimmerman fiasco.
If you are afraid of that then call 911, tell them what is going on and just drop your phone and go do what you are going to do. But I do agree that the 10 second it would take to call 911 and get that started is a smart thing to do. In the OP's scenario 10 seconds will not make a difference. The guy is not raping anyone nor is he actively shooting anyone.

I understand those that are talking about training, mindset, and equipment. You all know where I stand on that. The scenario is what it is. It is its own thing, variables to the enth degree. Lives are in the balance. Your families and the BGs. If you decided to act you better know what you are doing. If not, let 911 handle it. Either way you will have to deal with the aftermath of both, whatever decision you make. I can only speak for myself. I can only make this judgement based on my levels of training, mindset and equipment.

As for the BG living or not. Its up to you, but if he has a gun pointed at my little one, I am not talking, I am not reasoning with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JD

Nope, never been on the job, have toyed around the idea with joining as a reserve deputy/officer but our county does not have a reserves, the neighboring county where I work and where we spend a lot of time has a residency requirement. There are a couple of smaller city depts in the area that I've thought about joining as a reserve officer but haven't really followed up on it.



Regarding the scenario
Again we're not saying that you HAVE to wait, only that some may choose to pending on the skill level and ability to handle such a mess.

The 9-1-1 operator can also tell us that we're on Mars, doesn't mean it's true. Look how well "Stay in the house" worked with Joe Horn. They can suggest someone not enter all they want, they have no ability to prevent anyone from entering.

Now regarding the lone wolf etc. of county vs. city, if you were responding to such an incident would you just run in the house or would you call dispatch and let them know you're on scene and entering such a situation and request assistance from whoever is available?

As for finding someone bleeding out, I'd rather have an ambulance all ready in route BEFORE I find a loved one bleeding out so that I don't have to worry about calling 9-1-1 DURING/AFTER initial life saving steps.


Like I said in a previous post, what if you are are wounded in the fray? Who's going to call for help if all of you end up incapacitated? The bad guy? If he's able to get the hell out of Dodge he's going to leave you all there bleeding on the floor and be gone.

9-1-1 can't keep me on the phone and yes response times vary, and that's why I and others advocate getting the ball rolling on assistance earlier rather than later.

---

My mistake JD, sorry.

The point I was trying to make is --

• "How would you know if 911 or an ambulance needs to be called in the first place without evaluating the situation further?"

Me coming home to find my door kicked in is not a good enough reason to call 911. Heck, I've kicked my own door in before because I lost my keys. Who's to say something like that didn't happen?

Kids can be watching tv or listening to music., The wife can be washing clothes or out back feeding the chickens.

I'm not gonna call 911 just because I get home, call out for my wife or kids & don't get an answer. (That would be stupid and our department wouldn't have enough man power if everybody did that.)

I going to investigate further to be certain there is an ACTUAL emergency going on. If during that investigation I come ftc with someone holding my child or wife hostage, I just don't think I would tell the BG;

• "Wait a minute sir; I need to call 911."

If that happens I will do like LT said;

1st-
I'm gonna try to talk to my family to make sure they are ok. Then, I'm going to engage in "conversation" to the BG because if I can get him talking to me he is less likely to harm a hostage. (Hostage 101) But, I'm also keeping my sights on him while I look for the opportunity to end it!



The above being said--- "IF" during the initial evaluation I see what is going down (and the BG hasn't seen me yet), --AND-- I don't think there is an immediate danger to some BG killing a member of my family. I might back out, call 911 & relay intell.

-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

My mistake JD, sorry.

The point I was trying to make is --

• "How would you know if 911 or an ambulance needs to be called in the first place without evaluating the situation further?"

Me coming home to find my door kicked in is not a good enough reason. Heck, I've kicked my own door in before because I lost my keys. Who's to say something like that didn't happen?

Kids can be watching tv or listening to music., The wife can be washing clothes or out back feeding the chickens.

I'm not gonna call 911 just because I get home, call out for my wife or kids & don't get an answer. (That would be stupid and our department wouldn't have enough man power if everybody did that.)

I going to investigate further to be certain there is an ACTUAL emergency going on. If during that investigation I come ftc with someone holding my child or wife hostage, I just don't think I would tell the BG; "Wait a minute sir; I need to call 911."

If that happens I will do like LT said;

1st-
I'm gonna try to engage my family to make sure they are ok. Then, I'm going to talk to the BG because if I can get him talking to me he is less likely to harm a hostage. (Hostage 101) But, I'm also keeping my sights on him while I look for the opportunity to end it!



The above being said--- "IF" during the initial evaluation I see what is going down (and the BG hasn't seen me yet), --AND-- I don't think there is an immediate danger to some BG killing a member of my family. I might back out, call 911 & relay intell.

-

---

Agreed, we've been speaking on the premise that it as clearly not the case of just a "I lost my keys and kicked in a window" but something more sinister. Nor have Lima or I advocated backing out once the bad guy was confronted to make a phone call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JD

Agreed, we've been speaking on the premise that it as clearly not the case of just a "I lost my keys and kicked in a window" but something more sinister. Nor have Lima or I advocated backing out once the bad guy was confronted to make a phone call.

---

I think we're on the same page then. :wink:

What was the one ***** at the first mass shooting happenings? One was that the cop stood outside securing the perimeter and not going in to shot a stop the shooter and letting lots of people get killed. Where I live it will be some time before any LE gets to my home. Yes a call to 911 may need to be made but I am not waiting for LEO to show before I do something. I live in a area where if you have a problem, what ever it is, you take care of it to the best of your ability. Then let the expert clean it up if needed. You have to be a jack of all trades or you have a hard time of it here, waiting on others to take care of you.

I see this the same way as anything else that was to happen. It would be over, one way or the other, by the time LE got here. Right or wrong it would be dealt with.

And YES I see this as one of those times that meet my one "Sig Line"!...........And YES I'm an old man! And I find the saying to be true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glhadiator

And you may have to live with shooting your child. Are you ready to do that? Are you sure? The feeling 'I wish I had done more', is nothing to the feeling of your child having died from your gunshot. Me, I'm outside the home with weapon drawn waiting for LE to arrive on the scene. If they don't arrive in a reasonable time then I tell the 911 operator I'm going in.

---

It goes both ways. What if you wait outside for LEO and your family is bleeding out. You'd still have the feeling of guilt for not going in sooner.

Bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangba ngbangclickclick.

Threaten my family? Only once.

If someone that saw evidence of a break-in and thought there was even a chance their wife, or child, was in the house says that they wouldn't immediately go into the house. I'd wager they are single/divorced, and never had children.

I'll call 911 after the fact because I don't want anyone, LEO included, walking around my house with guns drawn when my kids/wife might be in the house. They don't know what my family members look like, and if something had happened, there's a good chance one of them could be armed. And what if the "break in" wasn't really a break in at all? I want to be the one that makes the call or takes the shot (or not) when it comes to my family - especially in my own home. If LE was willing to stay back and let me take point, I wouldn't mind that, but I doubt they would take too kindly to that.

But there's not a chance in hell that if I thought a BG had my wife and kids in my house and was possibly assaulting or killing them would I stand down on the driveway twiddling my thumbs waiting for someone to come and check it out.

... and if that really is your plan, I'd suggest you not tell your wives. She'll likely tell you that if you aren't going to use your guns to protect your own family in your own home, you don't need to be spending any more money on firearms ... or she'll take one of your guns and give it to the first man she finds that will.