Apt Situation

[blare]

Heres a real scenario that happened a couple of months ago:

Background:
I live in an apartment complex. It it is 3 stories tall with 4 apartments on every 4 floor (this is an open breeze way). The parking lot is 4 rows deep in the front.

I live on the second floor toward the back and caddy corner to me is a bunch of guys mid 20s 6'4 ish 230 pds from what I can tell about 3 live there. White always wearing work clothes.
Since we moved in over a year ago these guys were always partying every weekend with random girls and guys over. Now I had my fun freshman year of college at UGA so this doesnt bug me to much except for the fact that Ive seen some people get pretty aggressive with alcohol.

One night around 10pm (dark outside) my brother, friend, and I were coming back from McDonald's. My brother was playing around with his little laser light running it around on blacktop. At the same time one of guys is coming down to the parking lot and starts yelling "Get that ****ing **** off my car!" All of us were alittle confused because none of us had a seen him ever drive. Again he yells "Get that laser thing off my car" by this time my brother had already stopped.

We were now right before the last row till the apt with this guy standing in the middle of lot. He starts cussing about how we need to get our asses out of here and go somewhere else. He is clearly intoxicated so I calmy respond we live here buddy. I keep walking slowing at a distance of about 15 ft, but my brother and friend have stopped dead in their tracks. By this time the other 2 guys and there girlfriend have stepped outside and walking down the stairs. Noticing that my brother and friend were not moving while this guy was still mindlessly yelling I turned back got them and told them to come one.

The drunk guy starts walking toward me, closing distance from about 20 feet. All the sudden one of his buddies (drunk #2) rips off his shirt and begins plowing ass toward drunk#1. First thought in my mind was o crapppppp its on. Instead of going for me he was trying to hold back his drunk friend. They pulled him aside and we went about our way.

Later on that night drunk#2 apologizes, but since then there has been this weird tension. I might not have described this very well, but the situation was deffientately code double red. Drunk #1 ment buisness, and at the time #2 started to plow I felt my life was in real danger.

Now I didn't call the cops because these guys live next door. I just dont know how it would have turned out later. This is also one of the reasons I began to research a CCW and a firearm. I have never felt so exposed in my life.

I always think what would I have done if I had a firearm, drawn and shot the guy that was running toward me. When in fact he was trying to help.

Please comment.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ppcpilot]

I would think since no deadly weapons were present, you would have ended up with 2nd degree murder charges or manslaughter at the very least. I don't think the disparity of force was that great...yeah, you might have gotten your butt kicked really good, but really you had time to run if you had too..now if you were skilled in some kind of cool martial art, then by all means, duke it out.

Just because a drunk wants to fight without a deadly weapon doesn't mean you can shoot him...now if you were a little petite woman, well that's another story.

[SixBravo]

Assuming that I even stopped and Drunk #1 began walking towards me, I probably would have side-stepped (as fast and far as possible) the charger and drawn right down on him. If he kept coming towards me.... bang.

[rocky]

Take a few advanced classes if you haven't. Learn state law well. Know what you can and cannot do in most situations to defend yourself.
It might make all the diffrence between manslaughter charges or a good shoot.

[Scott]

Welcome to the forum blare.

One of the things you'll learn in an advanced course is to immediately move off the line of the perceived threat. In other words there is an imaginary line the guy is following to possibly hit you. Get off that line at the most severe angle you can manage.

Doing this in your scenario would do two things for you. One create distance in case he was coming for you, and also screwing up his ability to hit you. Two it would qualify the threat. If drunk #2 is focused on his buddy drunk #1 he will not change course to follow your movement. If he does change course to stay on you then he is a possible threat.

Most scenarios have a lot of subtleties that we would really have to be there to know about and react to properly. These would determine whether or not most of us would use deadly force or not to defend ourselves. So aside from getting offline of the perceived attacker I would have to make a decision after that based on #2's reaction to my movement.

[retsupt99]

and two 'drunks' does not qualify as 'disparity of force'. To leave the area as quickly as possible would be very smart! I would not have made eye contact (but keep him in sight) and I would have ignored his insults.
Now if he comes running at you...one hand would be on '911' and the other...
I depart from drunks as quickly as I can...you can't win if a drunk wants to fight'!
If these guys are nieghbors, I might (at a more appropriate time) let the resident know your feelings...in a nice way...try to keep neighbors happy...it could be a plus for the next party!

Stay alert...stay safe!

ret

[sgtD]

Sounds more like a a fight was about to occur than a deadly force situation. Talking calmly: good idea. Having to go back to get your friend and brother: not good.

Of course you don't want to escalate the situation, but you had this guy outnumbered 3:1, why was everyone so reluctant to keep moving. Even with the additon of drunk #2, you still had them out numbered.

Had you drawn or shot, you could probably have gone to jail. Please don't take this as an insult because it's not intended as one, but I think that you need to get yourself and your buddies some hand to hand training to build your confidence in these types of situations. Then, your boys would be more willing to back you up and you won't be considering pulling a gun when all that is warranted is shutting some drunk's mouth with either diplomacy or your fist.

If a fight did result, the drunks would be most likely to go to jail, because Drunk #1 started it and you have two sober witnesses who saw him do it. You would be justifably defending yourself.

[sgtD]

While I agree that trying to avoid a fight is always the best choice in these types of situations, I disagree with the following:

...you can't win if a drunk wants to fight'
ret

I CAN!

[retsupt99]

While I agree that trying to avoid a fight is always the best choice in these types of situations, I disagree with the following:

I CAN!

I did not mean that one could NOT win the confrontation...but at my age (60)...even if I win the fight (and I participated in wrestling to the state level...coached for 14 years) my body is just not the same. Even with a win...my body would probably pay for a long time. Years past, I would be quick to stand up to insults and such...now-a-days I'm just happy to stand up!
From my perspective...even a win could be a loss. That's why I'm now into 'GunFu'...very effective martial art.
But Sgt...I know where you're coming from...respectfully!

ret

[darkvibe]

I don't know about GA but if that happened in NY and you shot him you'd be sitting in jail for a long time.

[sgtD]

Ok Retsup you got me on that one. I know where your coming from as well and agree.

[Sheldon J]

While I agree that trying to avoid a fight is always the best choice in these types of situations, I disagree with the following:




I CAN!

I think what is meant here is that this is like arguing with a drunk... you can never win, sure in a actual fight you can side step him and trip a guy with all the coordination of a 90 year old but will you actually win... short answer No.

[Ron]

This thread raises an interesting question for me. When we refer to "disparity of force" does ones age and/or physical stature enter into the equation? Retsup mentioned age 60, what if we are talking age 70, or older? I believe it is correct to say that the older you are the more likely you are to suffer a serious, or even fatal injury, from a beating. Assume that I can't retreat and am being physically threatened by a much younger and bigger guy(no weapon, just fists). If I reasonably believe that a physical assault is imminent, and that I am in danger of suffering serious physical injury, do you think that I can use deadly force. I realize that the laws are different in each jurisdiction, but has anyone had occasion to check something like this out?

Ron

[Bob The Great]

This thread raises an interesting question for me. When we refer to "disparity of force" does ones age and/or physical stature enter into the equation? Retsup mentioned age 60, what if we are talking age 70, or older? I believe it is correct to say that the older you are the more likely you are to suffer a serious, or even fatal injury, from a beating. Assume that I can't retreat and am being physically threatened by a much younger and bigger guy(no weapon, just fists). If I reasonably believe that a physical assault is imminent, and that I am in danger of suffering serious physical injury, do you think that I can use deadly force. I realize that the laws are different in each jurisdiction, but has anyone had occasion to check something like this out?

Ron

I don't know about FL, but in TX, the law is very specific in only permitting the use of deadly force to protect against another's use of deadly force. Not just force, but deadly force.

The disparity of force argument comes into it by transforming an attack that would not normally be considered deadly into deadly force by virtue of being used by a specific attacker(s) on a specific victim. This is how I read it. Feel free to comment or correct.

One drunk guy trying to smack you in the face is generally not considered deadly force. However, if he's 350lb and breaks 4x4's for fun, his attack could be considered deadly. Likewise, if you are wheelchair-bound or much older/smaller than the attacker, you do not have the physical ability to stop his attack from being deadly... unless you have a gun.

This works both ways too. If you as the victim have a great disparity of force advantage against your attacker, then their attack would not be considered deadly, and you would not be justified in shooting them.

Let's reverse the situation above. You are the 350lb Gorilla, and some 4ft tall little old lady gets mad at you for parking too close, and starts beating on you with her cane. This is clearly not a situation that puts your life in danger, even though that same cane could be a deadly weapon if the roles were reversed.

The situation in the OP seems a little dicey to me, even if both drunk guys were charging him. He is still sober, has friends behind him, and is approximately the same size as his attackers (I am asuming). That means there is little disparity of force on either side.

In all likelihood, the best way to deal with that situation (if both guys were charging) would be to move quickly out of the way, evade, create distance, and then re-evaluate. If they chase you and produce a weapon, or if both your friends run off and leave you there, then the force disparity changes dramatically, and so must your reaction.

[Lew]

I watched a similar situation get diffused by the good guy yelling in a paniced voice and pointing over the shoulder of the drunk, "COPS, RUN!!!" and he took off running. The drunk was so slow to react that it was over before it began. It took the drunk so long to realize there was no cop present it was not even funny.