You Just Got The Bad Guy--Now What?

You Just Got The Bad Guy--Now What?

This is a discussion on You Just Got The Bad Guy--Now What? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I went through the Active Shooter/Killer/Terrorist program this weekend at Tactical Defense Institute near West Union, Ohio. Great stuff, which I highly recommend to anyone. ...

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Thread: You Just Got The Bad Guy--Now What?

  1. #1
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    You Just Got The Bad Guy--Now What?

    I went through the Active Shooter/Killer/Terrorist program this weekend at Tactical Defense Institute near West Union, Ohio. Great stuff, which I highly recommend to anyone. In addition to many live fire exercises, there were a host of active shooter, shoot/don't shoot scenarios ran through. Each student ran different portrayals, one of which I'll recount here. In a parking lot full of people, a gunman appeared and began firing on people. I took cover, fired on him and he went down. As I checked for another shooter, within a few seconds, I heard shouting at my 4:00. The auditory tunnel effect was in full effect and I couldn't process it, so I turned to see a gun and what appeared to be a badge in front of an individual in civilian attire, aimed at me about ten yards away. My hearing refocused, and I heard him shouting for me to drop my weapon and get down on the ground. Now what? Two of us ran this scenario as the good guy with the gun, with considerably different reactions.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand


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    You drop the gun and get on the ground.

    You can be in the right and still get dead.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    You drop the gun and get on the ground.

    You can be in the right and still get dead.
    Prior to having run that situation, as contrived as it was, that would have been my short answer as well. It still is. Doing the deal, tho, that clarity and quickness of response pretty much vanished. Like you said, do everything right and still get dead.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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    Bet you had one of those "Oh crap!" moments.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    I don't think a BG that has the drop on you is going to be telling you to drop your gun and get on the ground IMHO you will know he is a BG because he is shooting at you
    LongJohn6284 likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I don't think a BG that has the drop on you is going to be telling you to drop your gun and get on the ground IMHO you will know he is a BG because he is shooting at you
    Like I said, there were a couple seconds in which I could not hear what he was saying, and the only thing I really saw were streetclothes and a gun. I wasn't sure if he was covering me, or engaging me. Fortunately, he had his badge right beside the gun he was pointing at me, and I was able to discern it.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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    He already has the drop on me according to the scenario. And as already posted I agree that a BG would have just taken me out if he had the drop on me from my four O'clock. It isn't unusual for a BG to flash a fake badge but in this instance when you couple it with the order to drop my weapon and get on the ground it tells me LEO.

    Now I have a question for you. Based on the info provided in the scenario how can you be sure that you didn't shoot a plain clothes LEO taking out BGs? What may have appeared to be a BG shooting at people (based on the info provided) could very well have been a LEO. What felt like a heroic act could have been you taking action without fully assessing the situation. Scenario states you took cover and immediately shot him. Since you weren't being fired upon and were able to take cover you weren't in immediate danger. So shooting the supposed BG wasn't self defense but was in fact an attack.

    I took this type of training as well and we were instructed to be aware that we as civilians are trained to defend ourselves...and be careful to not assume LE duties.

    Serve my country, swear an oath to protect it, pay my taxes, fly old glory in the front yard, love and protect my family, honor the vets before me and help fellow americans in need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glhadiator View Post
    He already has the drop on me according to the scenario. And as already posted I agree that a BG would have just taken me out if he had the drop on me from my four O'clock. It isn't unusual for a BG to flash a fake badge but in this instance when you couple it with the order to drop my weapon and get on the ground it tells me LEO.

    Now I have a question for you. Based on the info provided in the scenario how can you be sure that you didn't shoot a plain clothes LEO taking out BGs? What may have appeared to be a BG shooting at people (based on the info provided) could very well have been a LEO. What felt like a heroic act could have been you taking action without fully assessing the situation. Scenario states you took cover and immediately shot him. Since you weren't being fired upon and were able to take cover you weren't in immediate danger. So shooting the supposed BG wasn't self defense but was in fact an attack.

    I took this type of training as well and we were instructed to be aware that we as civilians are trained to defend ourselves...and be careful to not assume LE duties.
    The original shooter was clearly not an LEO taking out bad guys, and my life was in danger given his actions and my proximity to him. Nothing else to assess there. The legitimacy of the shoot was not in question, nor the point of the exercise. It was not an act of heroism, but rather one of self-preservation. The point was to illustrate how quickly violence erupts, and all the different directions it will quickly go. Two seconds after I fired, I had an LEO screaming at me to drop my weapon (the bad guy was down behind a vehicle, out of his view) yet the only thing I was hearing was the teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons. When I turned to look at him, the only thing I initially saw was a gun pointed in my direction. To the distant observer, everything was crystal clear, but to the participants in the exercise, it was an ongoing oh crap moment.

    What he was actually screaming was "I'm a police officer. Drop your weapon and get down on the ground!" Once my hearing and vision came out of the tunnel, I understood all that and complied without incident. He then demanded to know what just happened, what my role was in it, and how many people were down in the parking lot.

    The other person who went through the same scenario reacted to the plain clothes officer much differently, initially refusing to surrender their weapon.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand

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    Its sounds like great training. You would be amazed, your reaction to a similar scenario now that you have done this. Your tool box just got a few new tools. Thanks for sharing Mike...
    tcox4freedom likes this.
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    Mike,

    Sounds like good training. What you went through is normal. That is why cops are trained to keep telling you loudly, repeatedly simple commands. Sometimes cops get stuck like a broken record and do not shoot when they should shoot. Been there done that........
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

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  11. #11
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    @Mike1956

    I am hoping that you didn't take my previous post as critical of your actions in the portrayal from your training session.

    The original shooter was clearly not an LEO taking out bad guys
    Although I agree that there can be some indicators to determine clearly if it is a BG or GG...

    In a parking lot full of people, a gunman appeared and began firing on people.
    In your original post that was not made clear. And I hope that in your training session they did make that clear for you.

    began firing on people. I took cover, fired on him
    I only question the shooter being in danger from the info posted. It wasn't stated that the shooter was shooting at you but instead at 'people'. Once a person takes cover the situation changes. Most of the changes depend on what type and how deep the cover is. But generally cover means getting off the X.

    I assume that the point of your exercise was how to react to events that happen after you shoot the BG. Again I wasn't being critical of your actions but instead the scenario as it was presented. It is important that we play out possible scenarios so we can be better prepared for the event should it ever happen to us.

    But the devil is in the details as one of my instructors put it to us.
    "Situational awareness is everything, before, during and after. Missing that one crucial detail spells the difference between a shoot you can live with or your family planting you in the ground." Det. R. Johnson.


    I went through some training that sounds similar to the one you attended. The one I went to focused on what happens once you take that shot/shots. And there are so many things I never thought about or even considered.

    I really like the way you describe the tunnel hearing after you shoot the BG. One of the things I don't think most people consider is that when and if that moment occurs you won't have hearing protection on when you take those shots. Add the overwhelming fear and confusion from having just possibly killed another human being and things get very fuzzy. It can be very possible that you are in more danger after the shoot than you were before depending on the situation.

    After that course I went through an unofficial modified IDPA without hearing protection to see how it would affect my performance. Since I train a lot I don't recommend doing so regularly as it isn't good for your hearing, but I think everyone ought to try it at least once.

    Thanks for sharing your experience with the forum. I find that most of the stuff on this forum is well stated and mature. I found yours to be intriguing and informative.

    Serve my country, swear an oath to protect it, pay my taxes, fly old glory in the front yard, love and protect my family, honor the vets before me and help fellow americans in need.
    By definition my country now calls me a radical

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