road rage questions

This is a discussion on road rage questions within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg Instead of thinking "when can I use my gun?", I would suggest thinking "what I can do to avoid using my ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Hillhick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    Instead of thinking "when can I use my gun?", I would suggest thinking "what I can do to avoid using my gun?"

    Get out of Dodge if you can. If you can't, you have to be in legitimate fear for your life or of great bodily harm. Usually that means that you are trapped and the BG is carrying a weapon of some sort.
    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    why do we always see these types of stories with members who have single digit posts?
    Maybe because they new to carrying and need to learn?
    I am brand new to this forum and I do not think this way, however. All us noobs aren't the same.
    Instead of asking "when can I pull my gun?", I think a better question is when do I have to pull my gun?

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillhick View Post
    Maybe because they new to carrying and need to learn?
    I am brand new to this forum and I do not think this way, however. All us noobs aren't the same.
    Instead of asking "when can I pull my gun?", I think a better question is when do I have to pull my gun?
    Trying to be polite. Concealed carriers should already know the use of force laws before they carry. Nobody said noobs are the same. I don't equate your firearms knowledge based on the number of posts your have. However, I do base it on the quality and common sense factor.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  4. #48
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badey View Post
    First of all, nice to see another member from da' burgh on here... there are several of us on the forum.

    Secondly, as others have said, if you can drive away, drive away. Bringing a gun into play is always a last resort. Also, being in the confined space of a car can make self-defense a difficult endeavor.
    Born and raised in the Burgh as well.

    Drive, drive, drive! If you can get away, get away. The only time I'd even consider my gun in such a situation is if while being followed, I end up being blocked in (think coming up on a red light, can't go forward, left, or right)..

    Stay safe out there in the Burgh and stay smart.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillhick View Post
    Maybe because they new to carrying and need to learn?
    I am brand new to this forum and I do not think this way, however. All us noobs aren't the same.
    Instead of asking "when can I pull my gun?", I think a better question is when do I have to pull my gun?
    To answer your question.
    Generally:
    1. When you have the same fear a "reasonable man" would have that you or a loved one are going to suffer grave bodily injury or death.
    2. When there is no safe means of escape.
    3. When someone forcibly enters your house, especially after dark (usually, but not always).


    The first two criteria need not always be met in the same situation... Some states have "Stand your ground" laws... That said, sometimes those SYG laws do not even apply, the more common laws of self defense do.

    When you don't pull your gun:

    1. To protect yourself from a beating you had coming (you instigated it). (Unless you are nearly dead. Then, MAYBE (probably not, but maybe)
    2. To protect your possessions, stuff, junk, TV, stereo, car, jewelry. In most states, if an unarmed man walks into your front door in broad daylight, as you sit on the couch watching Nickelodeon, walks over to the tv, unplugs it and starts to walk out the door with it... DO NOT SHOOT HIM, maybe don't even point a gun at him. Call 911, follow him out, and get his plate #. Yes, in some states you can try citizens arrest, holding a felon with whatever force is necessary. (If you live in Texas, you can pretty much shoot him 'cause he needed killin' under many versions of this #2)
    3. To stop a fight between two or more people on the street, whom you don't know, and have no real KNOWLEDGE of which one or more are the badguys, what happened, who's at fault, which one was the aggressor.... Even if one or more of the participants is a woman, yes really.


    The more you have in liquid assets (ready cash on hand or very near to it) the more likely you can ignore some of these... I heard of a guy named Orenthal that got away with murder... but, he went broke doing it... and ended up in jail for strongarming some of his stuff back from another guy... I think he drove a Bronco once upon a time...

    In many states... here is the kicker....

    You can be legally right
    You can be morally right
    YOU CAN BE CIVILLY LIABLE. (up to and including loss of everything you have, ever will earn, and ever hope to have)

    KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE.

    And THAT was the short answer!
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    To answer your question.
    Generally:
    1. When you have the same fear a "reasonable man" would have that you or a loved one are going to suffer grave bodily injury or death.
    2. When there is no safe means of escape.
    3. When someone forcibly enters your house, especially after dark (usually, but not always).


    The first two criteria need not always be met in the same situation... Some states have "Stand your ground" laws... That said, sometimes those SYG laws do not even apply, the more common laws of self defense do.

    When you don't pull your gun:

    1. To protect yourself from a beating you had coming (you instigated it). (Unless you are nearly dead. Then, MAYBE (probably not, but maybe)
    2. To protect your possessions, stuff, junk, TV, stereo, car, jewelry. In most states, if an unarmed man walks into your front door in broad daylight, as you sit on the couch watching Nickelodeon, walks over to the tv, unplugs it and starts to walk out the door with it... DO NOT SHOOT HIM, maybe don't even point a gun at him. Call 911, follow him out, and get his plate #. Yes, in some states you can try citizens arrest, holding a felon with whatever force is necessary. (If you live in Texas, you can pretty much shoot him 'cause he needed killin' under many versions of this #2)
    3. To stop a fight between two or more people on the street, whom you don't know, and have no real KNOWLEDGE of which one or more are the badguys, what happened, who's at fault, which one was the aggressor.... Even if one or more of the participants is a woman, yes really.


    The more you have in liquid assets (ready cash on hand or very near to it) the more likely you can ignore some of these... I heard of a guy named Orenthal that got away with murder... but, he went broke doing it... and ended up in jail for strongarming some of his stuff back from another guy... I think he drove a Bronco once upon a time...

    In many states... here is the kicker....

    You can be legally right
    You can be morally right
    YOU CAN BE CIVILLY LIABLE. (up to and including loss of everything you have, ever will earn, and ever hope to have)

    KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE.

    And THAT was the short answer!
    Agree for the most part but..... There is no chance for a bad guy to remove my property from my home without using force. Subsequently, there is little chance he can accomplish this without being deprived of the rest of his life!
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  7. #51
    Member Array Glhadiator's Avatar
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    To the OP;

    Welcome to the forum. I haven't been a member here that long myself. How long you've been a member or how many posts you make doesn't equal common sense, knowledge or wisdom. I hope that you stick around because there is plenty you can learn from the members on this forum. I'm not saying that everyone here could be gun safety/defense instructors, but for the most part the forum is informed, intelligent and mature.

    As for the thread topic...I join all the previous posters and stress that you review all your state laws concerning self defense. Be sure you understand the awesome responsibility that comes with carrying a weapon. You can learn a lot right here on this forum. I hope that you take something positive from the posts made in response from your thread.

    We all learn from our mistakes, but a mistake with a gun is one you never want to make.

    Serve my country, swear an oath to protect it, pay my taxes, fly old glory in the front yard, love and protect my family, honor the vets before me and help fellow americans in need.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    Born and raised in the Burgh as well.

    Drive, drive, drive! If you can get away, get away. The only time I'd even consider my gun in such a situation is if while being followed, I end up being blocked in (think coming up on a red light, can't go forward, left, or right)..

    Stay safe out there in the Burgh and stay smart.
    A red light would not be sufficient cause to draw a weapon... I'll take a $50 traffic infraction over a shooting any day.
    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap - ballot - jury - ammo

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  9. #53
    Senior Member Array cn262's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Personally..... I think your head is in the wrong place, and you are asking the wrong questions.

    To me, you are asking "when I can introduce a gun to solve my problems for me " .... the answer is NEVER ! ! ! The gun is not there to stop, end, terminate, or resolve confrontations you may or may not have, nor problems you have with someone. It's there ONLY ..... to protect yourself if someone is trying to kill you, attempting to, or is more than likely going to.

    It's sure not a free pass to start things with people, and then use it to get you out of them.
    Great post by Eagleks.

    There is something else that is very pertinent that nobody else seems to have mentioned. The minute you introduce a weapon (knife, bat, tire iron, gun, whatever) into the mix there is an escalation of force (relative to the use of force continuum). The other person may have been acting stupid and even dangerously, but if you brandish your weapon then you could now be viewed as the aggressor (and possibly justify that person doing something worse).

    As others have mentioned, call 911 and if the you have eye contact with the person make some type of "I'm sorry" gesture - even if it wasn't your fault. Better to de-escalate and let law enforcement deal with the person. Chances are the person has a history of this and/or there are other things at play (drugs, alcohol, mental disorder, who knows). It's not worth risking going to jail over (or worse) unless there is absolutely no alternative.
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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire View Post
    A red light would not be sufficient cause to draw a weapon... I'll take a $50 traffic infraction over a shooting any day.
    I might not of worded it very well, but I was talking about being BLOCKED IN. Do you ram the car infront of you/left of you/right of you, to get out of the way? By red light, I meant being behind a car, not being the first car at the red light, cuz of course I'd run the light too if it was safe to. Not going to endanger somebody else or run the risk of hurting myself to ironically, protect myself
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I might not of worded it very well, but I was talking about being BLOCKED IN. Do you ram the car infront of you/left of you/right of you, to get out of the way?
    Possibly, if I'm in my Blazer... but not if I'm in my Saturn, because it doesn't have the power to move another car. A little scratched paint and an insurance claim is still preferable to shooting someone.

    That's what "Last Resort" means.
    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap - ballot - jury - ammo

    “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie: deliberate, continued, and dishonest; but the myth: persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.”
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  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I might not of worded it very well, but I was talking about being BLOCKED IN. Do you ram the car infront of you/left of you/right of you, to get out of the way? By red light, I meant being behind a car, not being the first car at the red light, cuz of course I'd run the light too if it was safe to. Not going to endanger somebody else or run the risk of hurting myself to ironically, protect myself
    Shortly after witnessing my first carjacking I read an article by Mas Ayoob. MA advised to leave enough space at red lights to facilitate a quick exit. I never get too close at red lights. In fact, if your behind them, stay way back!
    thechriskarel likes this.
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  13. #57
    Member Array CPanther95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    Born and raised in the Burgh as well.

    Drive, drive, drive! If you can get away, get away. The only time I'd even consider my gun in such a situation is if while being followed, I end up being blocked in (think coming up on a red light, can't go forward, left, or right)..
    Mercer County, PA here (originally)

    To the OP, when you are controlling the equivalent of a 4000 lb. guided missile travelling at 50-60 mph and you are facing another 4000 lb. guided missile - don't concern yourself with trying to introduce a couple extra ounces of lead into the situation - in 1/3 ounce increments.

    1) Avoid his car
    2) Use yours to get away
    3) If you need force as a last resort, use your vehicle.

    *Disclaimer: I do not know what model vehicle the OP was driving - and I'd prefer to see how that specific model performs when driven into a block of ballistic gelatin compared to a 158 gr. .38 before making final recommendations.
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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post
    *Disclaimer: I do not know what model vehicle the OP was driving - and I'd prefer to see how that specific model performs when driven into a block of ballistic gelatin compared to a 158 gr. .38 before making final recommendations.
    that's 100% unfiltered awesome right there
    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap - ballot - jury - ammo

    “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie: deliberate, continued, and dishonest; but the myth: persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.”
    -- John F. Kennedy

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Shortly after witnessing my first carjacking I read an article by Mas Ayoob. MA advised to leave enough space at red lights to facilitate a quick exit. I never get too close at red lights. In fact, if your behind them, stay way back!
    I do the same and I try to stay in the far right or far left lanes when on 3 lane roads if possible.

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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Shortly after witnessing my first carjacking I read an article by Mas Ayoob. MA advised to leave enough space at red lights to facilitate a quick exit. I never get too close at red lights. In fact, if your behind them, stay way back!


    Have been doing this for ~30yrs+, long before I'd ever heard of Mas. It has gotten me out of two attempted carjackings, ejected me from a couple ugly "street" situations, allowed me to avoid a few backing-up-blind drivers, and allowed me to sidestep a handful of tailgater-induced car crashes that would have nailed me from behind.

    Leaving an "out" is just one of those sensible things that works in many situations in life.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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